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What can frum people do?
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 10:59 am
The longer I'm married, older I get and the larger my family gets, the more shocking frum expenses are.
I am BT and it was so much easier to save money or cut things out when there weren't all these religious and cultural expenses.
We have to live in a frum community with schools, kosher, mikvah.
We have tuition to pay for each child.
We are encouraged to have large families.
Tznius clothing for myself and my girls are expensive (even if we shop sales and not in BP $150 dresses).
CY, PY, drive food prices up.
All the yomim tovim and their expenses.
Uniforms that are frum store specific.
Yeshiva, Seminary.

I keep hearing from friends oh but secular/non Jews spend on other things.

I don't agree.

I think we need to cut somewhere to survive. Where can frum people cut in their expenses to make up for all these additional costs?
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Success10




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 11:05 am
It's more expensive to be frum. No one can claim otherwise. I think large, frum families live simply, don't travel, save meat for Yontif, wear hand-me-downs, have one car, and are sometimes even the recipients of tzedaka. They try to enjoy a Torah life, without a lot of the things that other people take for granted. It's not easy, but I think I do see a lot of siyata dishmaya in the frum world, as far as finances are concerned. And sometimes, families are just not making it.
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elisheva25




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 11:27 am
Each family needs to figuire out where they will cut their expenses
There is not formula that will work for everyone.
But generally yes, the more kids you have the more $ you need . Just for tuition alone
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amother
Red


 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 11:57 am
First, it's not being frum per se that's expensive. Lots of religious families in Israel live beautiful religious lives on a budget. It's being frum in North America that's expensive.

Second, even in North America, some frum communities are more expensive than others. You know who you are.

Don't confuse religious needs with sociological ones. Yes, tuition is a killer. Make sure to get your kids the kind of education that will enable them to support themselves with dignity.

But otherwise (aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?) a lot of the expenses are self-imposed.
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amother
Bisque


 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 12:01 pm
amother [ Red ] wrote:
First, it's not being frum per se that's expensive. Lots of religious families in Israel live beautiful religious lives on a budget. It's being frum in North America that's expensive.

Second, even in North America, some frum communities are more expensive than others. You know who you are.

Don't confuse religious needs with sociological ones. Yes, tuition is a killer. Make sure to get your kids the kind of education that will enable them to support themselves with dignity.

But otherwise (aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?) a lot of the expenses are self-imposed.

I agree. I went to college (paid for it myself, thankyouverymuch) and have a well paying career. Thankfully I married someone likeminded. We also live in Israel where it's not that much more expensive to be frum. My kids go to public school, I don't have to use my vacation days for Jewish holidays. You can pretty much live anywhere in the country, there are shuls and mikvahs everywhere. Kosher food everywhere. My kids know they will have to support themselves once they finish college.
ETA: one of my kids went to an expensive private school - it was 18,000 shekel a year (less than 5500). Think: the type of school which would charge at least $25,000 a year in the US.
Pre school is a few hundred shekel a year plus 500 shekel a year for tzaharon which includes lunch.
HS is around 6000 shekel.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 12:01 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Where can frum people cut in their expenses to make up for all these additional costs?
I know I will get flamed gor this, but make aliyah. Expenses are different here.

Yes, I know, its not for everyone. But I do actually know a few families who made akiyah to better their finances. And bh they are doing much better here.
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 12:02 pm
I work with non Jewish people and they have very different ideas about what to spend money on. They are willing to shell out for fancy vacations in exotic places, new fancy (IMO) car leases, tons of new clothing/shoes (especially exercise clothing) organic food from Whole Foods, newest model phones.... most jewish people I know would not spend on these kinds of things unless they have a lot money.
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baby12x




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 12:05 pm
There are no secrets.
Work hard.
Stay in budget- even for yom tov!!
Save as early and as much as you can
Don't spend too much money on cars and houses (yes- you can find cheaper housing in the big frum cities- you just have to compromise on a lot).

Make a budget and STICK TO IT!

https://adimesaved.com/how-to-make-a-budget
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 12:13 pm
amother [ Red ] wrote:
First, it's not being frum per se that's expensive. Lots of religious families in Israel live beautiful religious lives on a budget. It's being frum in North America that's expensive.

Second, even in North America, some frum communities are more expensive than others. You know who you are.

Don't confuse religious needs with sociological ones. Yes, tuition is a killer. Make sure to get your kids the kind of education that will enable them to support themselves with dignity.

But otherwise (aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?) a lot of the expenses are self-imposed.


You are right. living in Israel is not more expensive. bc its a jewish state. duh.

We do live in North America.
The examples I gave where not cultural self imposed expenses but rather religious ones.
I budget monthly (and adjust as things come up) and I have a cousin who is my budget partner. It is amazing to me how much of my budget is connected to frum living.
Tuition, kosher, tznius/clothing, mikvah, yomim tovim, simchos (even simple ones you still pay for tefillin or the mohel), shaitels, the inability to live just anywhere or take just any job etc.

The only difference I see amongst my not frum family and friends is that they go out to eat a lot.

I was kind of wondering if there were areas or ways a frum person can cut (typical secular) expenses to make up for our added expenses.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 12:19 pm
Anyone who argues that frum people can live as cheaply as nonfrum is lying to himself. You probably couldn't do it even if you lived self-sufficiently on a farm with a lake (no mikvah fees), milked and shechted your own cattle or were vegan, made your own clothes and were learned enough to give your dc a complete Hebrew day school education while homeschooling. Unless you lived in the tropics, you would at the very least have to buy a lulav and etrog every year, even if you grew your own kosher hadassim and aravot.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 12:24 pm
Tznius clothing doesn't have to be expensive.

Muslimahs dress modestly in regular clothes.

So do JWs, Mormons, and other groups.
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amother
Honeydew


 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 12:26 pm
I know all about "nonfrum people spend on other things." Sure--on non-essentials. I had to bite my tongue listening to my coworker gripe about the thousands she spends on Xmas gifts for her dc. The swimming pool that they put in and took out a few years later. The new remodeled kitchen, the new "greenhouse" extension on the house. The $40K it cost each year to send her dc to a private university. Cry me a river. For 14 years from ages 4 to 18, she sent her kids to excellent, FREE public schools while I was shelling out the big bucks to send mine to Jewish schools. Why wasn't she saving up for their education then?
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Success10




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 12:28 pm
sequoia wrote:
Tznius clothing doesn't have to be expensive.

Muslimahs dress modestly in regular clothes.

So do JWs, Mormons, and other groups.


I actually think all those groups have specialty clothing stores as well.
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amother
Red


 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 12:32 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
You are right. living in Israel is not more expensive. bc its a jewish state. duh.

We do live in North America.
The examples I gave where not cultural self imposed expenses but rather religious ones.
I budget monthly (and adjust as things come up) and I have a cousin who is my budget partner. It is amazing to me how much of my budget is connected to frum living.
Tuition, kosher, tznius/clothing, mikvah, yomim tovim, simchos (even simple ones you still pay for tefillin or the mohel), shaitels, the inability to live just anywhere or take just any job etc.

The only difference I see amongst my not frum family and friends is that they go out to eat a lot.

I was kind of wondering if there were areas or ways a frum person can cut (typical secular) expenses to make up for our added expenses.


Tuition is what it is, unfortunately. Kosher food costs more, but there are a lot of budget mavens here who can give you advice. What I can suggest, if you aren't doing it already, is to cut down on processed foods and shop at big supermarket chains rather than kosher stores. Clothing isn't that much more expensive if you shop online and don't buy fancy matching outfits. Again, mainstream stores are key. I don't know how much your mikvah costs, but it's less than getting a Starbucks coffee every day for 2 weeks, no? Yom tov has some added expenses, but essentially you're making shabbos plus buying matza or daled minim. How you make a simcha is sociological, not religiously mandated, other than buying tefillin. Though presumably you have 13 years to save up. Shaitels are as expensive as you want them to be. Compare the cost to getting your hair cut and colored at a salon. Yes, you need to live in a Jewish neighborhood. There are very few jobs you can't have if you are frum, unless you mean that you can't go to where the jobs are. However, most religious Jewish neighborhoods are in or near solid job markets. Being a rancher in Utah would be hard, but it wouldn't pay tuition either.

Non-religious families may spend on other things, and they will certainly be able to afford nicer houses, cars, and vacations than you can at the same salary. I imagine you don't have kids playing travel sports or other super expensive hobbies.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 12:37 pm
Success10 wrote:
I actually think all those groups have specialty clothing stores as well.


they may exist, but most women dont shop there.

the muslimahs I know throw on a hijab, tunic, jeans, and sandals and they are ready to go.
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lamplighter




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 12:48 pm
sequoia wrote:
Tznius clothing doesn't have to be expensive.

Muslimahs dress modestly in regular clothes.

So do JWs, Mormons, and other groups.


Just buying tights and stockings is a lot.

Skirts and dresses that cover the knees are hard to find. You can't just pick up $5 shirts in walmart.

Our modesty laws are not the same as the groups you mentioned. And I'll bet if we asked them they would say they spend more.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 12:51 pm
lamplighter wrote:
Just buying tights and stockings is a lot.

Skirts and dresses that cover the knees are hard to find. You can't just pick up $5 shirts in walmart.



Really? Not in my experience. Long skirts are everywhere and very easy to find.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 12:56 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:


I was kind of wondering if there were areas or ways a frum person can cut (typical secular) expenses to make up for our added expenses.


Don't kid yourself that you'll ever be able to live as cheaply as nonfrum people while enjoying the same standard of living. That is not going to happen. After all, you can't very well live in a big rambling farmhouse in mid-Nebraska no matter that you could buy it for a pittance, and chances are you're not going to want to send your dc to public school and hire an afterschool tutor for limudei kodesh.

You would never be able to completely offset the added cost of frum lifestyle; the most you can hope for is to moderate your expenses and/or increase your income. This requires courage, effort, organization, and an indifference to public opinion, or what you see as public opinion. I'm not going to go into details of frugal living; there are more than enough books, magazines and websites with countless ideas. Just as you don't really need a kosher cookbook because you know to skip or modify tref recipes, you don't really need a book on frugal frum living; just skip or modify suggestions that won't work for you. Obviously you can't get a second job on Saturdays.

You can choose to buy a smaller house, make a smaller down payment and a longer mortgage, repair rather than replace, make more modest simchas even if you think people will look down on you, buy less stuff and in general go for a simpler lifestyle. Many things that people say you "have to have" is pure frummy shtick. If you're brave enough to refuse to go along with it, others will follow suit and you'll be a heroine.
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 12:57 pm
I think this also depends tremendously on where you live. Standards out of town, especially in the Midwest are way lower than NY/NJ. You will not be an outcast if you don't have all the so called "necessities ". The pressure to keep up with the Jones is much less. Being careful with money and being less materialist is more valued and less looked down upon.

This extends to the clothing/shaitels/shoes you buy for you and your kids, the cars you drive, the kind of house you live in, what kind of stroller you have, what you do in the summer, what kinds of food you make for your family, how you make yom tov. These sorts of things can be bought for less if you so desire without "major social repercussions".
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Wed, Sep 02 2020, 1:04 pm
lamplighter wrote:
Just buying tights and stockings is a lot.

Skirts and dresses that cover the knees are hard to find. You can't just pick up $5 shirts in walmart.

Our modesty laws are not the same as the groups you mentioned. And I'll bet if we asked them they would say they spend more.


Target actually has lots of longer skirt/dress options as of recently. I find their clothing is pretty good quality and stylish for a good, reasonable price.
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