What can frum people do?

amother

Taupe

Fri, Sep 04 2020, 4:57 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

So I'm going to say this straight out - the reason I splurge on the things like cleaning help, nicer food and clothing, is simple - I have to make enough money to pay for tuitions, multiple children and housing - I might as well add on a few more dollars on luxuries.

IME, the biggest expenses of frum living are not food and clothing, it's housing, tuition and yomim Tovim. Even if you whittle down your food and clothing to the bare bone basics, you still need to make more more than the AVERAGE annual salary for non frum people.

Many years ago I had dreams of living simply. I thought it was possible for us to live on a middle class income if we would live very, very frugally. I since found out that it just wasn't. There is no way to live frum - frugally on a small salary, and keep up with the costs of frum living. So I traded my dreams of living on homemade bread, hand me down clothes, and a better quality of life for a life that my husband and I both feel like hamsters on the treadmill.

I'll say it frankly - if I'm shelling out $3,000 a month (or more) in tuition, another $3000 (let's say) in housing costs, I just don't see the terrible aveirah in buying a yogurt every now and then. Worst case scenario, if I buy 20 yogurts a week, it's $80 a month. And it's nutritious. And even high end things like Bugaboos and expensive shaitels - it's something you buy ONCE and have for a while. And which gets pretty much swallowed up in the monthly $10,000+ budget. So I'm not apologizing for it at all.

Who is saying that someone shouldn't decide to have as nice a lifestyle as they can afford?

And many of the posters state that going into professions that will provide a high income in order to afford a good lifestyle is what they have done - and what they want their children to do.

The issue is if you can't afford everything that goes into a *nice* lifestyle and then refuse to acknowledge that certain things are not necessities but are luxuries.

Isn't this the point of the whole thread? Separating what are necessary higher expenses of the Frum lifestyle and those which for whatever reason people justify as being necessary when they are really discretionary.

Obviously anyone (or almost anyone) is going to prefer to be able to have a cleaning woman; a food budget that doesn't entail denying normal foods as unaffordable and the ability to clothe oneself and one's family in nice clothing.

You say yourself that you work to earn enough money to splurge - nothing wrong with that. But there is something wrong with denying that certain things are splurges and either you make enough money to afford them or you do without them.

amother

Forestgreen

Fri, Sep 04 2020, 4:58 pm

Honestly that whole cut out starbucks and you will become rich thing is sooo overstated. It's one of these almost myths that financial "experts" love to tout but in reality is not all that.

So, instead of spending $3 daily on coffee or whatever, instead you are draggy and exhausted halfway thru thr day, so you buy a candy bar or soda from your staff break room snack machine. So you spend $2 and save $1. (These are approximate amounts but you get the idea.) It really isn't going to add up to significant savings.

Let's say I cut out my magazine subscription and only rely on library books. I am constantly running out, spending gas, worrying about overdues or paying for lost books, etc. For $200 or so a year, I get it delivered to my home. It's considerably cheaper than the newsstand price. I don't pay extra for the YT edition which helps entertain my whole family. People aren't robots and it's ok to take a bit of enjoyment out of life within reason.

I do have to say, that many of the people I grew up with who lived in penny pinching families ended up being the ones to put a huge emphasis on making sure they and their kids have the latest accessories and styles. There is something to that adage abt kids who grew up feeling deprived end up trying to overcompensate for it later in life.

amother

Taupe

Fri, Sep 04 2020, 5:05 pm

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

Honestly that whole cut out starbucks and you will become rich thing is sooo overstated. It's one of these almost myths that financial "experts" love to tout but in reality is not all that.

So, instead of spending $3 daily on coffee or whatever, instead you are draggy and exhausted halfway thru thr day, so you buy a candy bar or soda from your staff break room snack machine. So you spend $2 and save $1. (These are approximate amounts but you get the idea.) It really isn't going to add up to significant savings.

Let's say I cut out my magazine subscription and only rely on library books. I am constantly running out, spending gas, worrying about overdues or paying for lost books, etc. For $200 or so a year, I get it delivered to my home. I don't pay extra for the YT edition which helps entertain my whole family. People aren't robots and it's ok to take a bit of enjoyment out of life within reason.

I do have to say, that many of the people I grew up with who lived in penny pinching families ended up being the ones to put a huge emphasis on making sure they and their kids have the latest accessories and styles. There is something to that adage abt kids who grew up feeling deprived end up trying to overcompensate for it later in life.

Who said you become rich or that you have to penny pinch.

My post was just stating how I began to look at expenses differently in terms of allocating them.

The money I spent on Starbucks (my personal example) was complete discretionary. However, when I looked at the annual cost for my habit, it forced me to think about whether I wanted to spend $1500 a year on coffee or whether I wanted to spend $1500 a year on something else.

Maybe someone else would decide that it was worth it for them.

FWIW, your example of grabbing a candy bar from the vending machine was also something I realized was an expense that I didn't want or need. I would stock my desk with nutritious stuff and even some fun stuff and I would stock the refrigerator and freezer at work with fruit and other stuff.

I also rethought buying lunch every day and realized that it made more sense - financially and nutritionally to bring lunch. It didn't stop me from eating lunch out when I wanted to socialize or when it made sense for some reason. I never felt deprived because it wasn't a matter of depriving myself of stuff that really mattered. If it mattered, I would have made different financial choices.

I was just pointing out that unless one has truly unlimited funds, one is going to be making choices of how to spend discretionary income. Just realizing what the true cost of those decisions are helps one determine how one wants to spend money.

With the money saved on Starbucks and perhaps a few other not missed expenses, one can afford cleaning help. Every one is going to have a different equation for what gives them the best lifestyle. If I had to make a decision, a cleaning lady makes my life far better than coffee from Starbucks since I can easily replace Starbucks without feeling deprived. Hard to replace the wonderful sensation of coming home to a clean home and not having to scrub floors or toilets.

amother

Forestgreen

Fri, Sep 04 2020, 5:15 pm

I don't work in an area where there is a kosher option of eating out so I always pack. Sure it's cheaper. But it's not free. I'm still buying bread and tuna and salad ingredients and whatever else goes into my lunch. If I would be near a kosher pizza shop let's say, and I would buy myself a slice of pizza it would probably come out to the same amount.

Yes, sometimes I buy a candy bar at work. If I stocked up on prebought snacks in my desk, honestly how much cheaper would it be? You are still spending money on snacks. Just not on the spur of the moment.

It's really a matter of saving some of the money, it's not that you actually jave that extra total amount of 1,500.

Mommyg8

Fri, Sep 04 2020, 5:20 pm

amother [ Taupe ] wrote:

Who is saying that someone shouldn't decide to have as nice a lifestyle as they can afford?

That wasn't what I said at all. I said that if you anyways need to make enough money to provide the basics of frum living - more kids, higher housing costs and tuition - then you might as well add a few dollars for small luxuries. You simply can't 'do' frum on a lower middle class or even middle class salary, no matter how you want to slice the cake.

amother [ Taupe ] wrote:

And many of the posters state that going into professions that will provide a high income in order to afford a good lifestyle is what they have done - and what they want their children to do.

Again, that's not what I did at all. It never even occurred to us to go into a profession that will provide a high income in order to afford a good lifestyle. I was brought up simply and so was my husband, we never aspired to a "good lifestyle".

amother [ Taupe ] wrote:

The issue is if you can't afford everything that goes into a *nice* lifestyle and then refuse to acknowledge that certain things are not necessities but are luxuries.

Again, just to afford the basics - tuition, housing near a frum community, marrying off kids, etc. - you need a lot of money. It's not just the *nice* lifestyle that's the problem here.

amother [ Taupe ] wrote:

Isn't this the point of the whole thread? Separating what are necessary higher expenses of the Frum lifestyle and those which for whatever reason people justify as being necessary when they are really discretionary.

Maybe, but in my opinion that's just silly. Cutting out yogurts is not going to suddenly allow you to afford tuition. Or a decent size house for [8 - 12] kids.

amother [ Taupe ] wrote:

Obviously anyone (or almost anyone) is going to prefer to be able to have a cleaning woman; a food budget that doesn't entail denying normal foods as unaffordable and the ability to clothe oneself and one's family in nice clothing.

You say yourself that you work to earn enough money to splurge - nothing wrong with that. But there is something wrong with denying that certain things are splurges and either you make enough money to afford them or you do without them.

Nope. I did NOT say that. You misread. I work to earn enough money to cover BASICS. Once I have to do that - and basics nowadays you need upwards of $150K for an older family - it's just silly to say - cut out the yogurts.

amother

Taupe

Fri, Sep 04 2020, 5:22 pm

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

I don't want to belabor it but bringing lunch from home is a HUGE savings.

Not kosher but kosher would be more expensive - A tuna sandwich from Sunway is $5.29. It's not a particularly healthy choice because I am sure it is mostly mayo. There is tax on this unlike the tuna or other food from the store. And kosher restaurants and take out are significantly more money

There are similar savings on what you drink whether it is soda, bottled water, ice tea or hot tea.

Depending on what you snack on, granola bars, candy, fruit, chips, microwave popcorn - whatever - the price for something brought from home is probably more than half the savings. You can buy large boxes of single serving snacks from Costco or Amazon which are very cheap per bag or per serving. Hardly a hardship to bring whatever you like for your desk drawer.

I am really not preaching that people should be deprived and never indulge themselves or have fun. I am merely saying - that at least for me - finding ways to save money in small ways that I didn't miss allowed me to have more money for the things that were important to me and that truly enriched or made my family's life better or my life easier.

Coffee beanz

Fri, Sep 04 2020, 5:26 pm

amother [ Wine ] wrote:

200,000
After taxes left with 160.
After tuitio. (Let’s say 5 kids , tuition each 6500) left with 127,500
After health insurance and related expenses left with 90,000
After mortgage left with 70,000
Food let’s say $200 week you’re left with 59400
Now if someone made 59,400 for a family of 5, and got free tuition, HUD (free rent), and government healthcare , , and food stamps would you say they’re comfortable ? No way. They still have to pay al other bills , clothing , car notes , gas, phones , shoes, any household stuff ...
if someone makes 200,000 and pays for the programs the government doesn’t pay for , they’re suddenly at a relatively low income.

That is a low tuition for many places. Many places over 8-10k per kid

amother

Honeydew

Fri, Sep 04 2020, 6:28 pm

I laugh when I read about cutting out your daily latte or newspaper and saving $1500 a year—because I already drink only instant coffee, read the free paper they give out on the subway, subscribe to no magazines, borrow books from the library, do my own nails, hem my own dresses, darn my compression socks, make soup from scraps, pay my credit cards in full every month, think three or four times before buying things—and I know there are still many more things I could do to cut back expenses that I don’t . I do these things because I want to, not because I have to, but I also know that if I didn’t do them I would end up doing them because I have to. Little leaks add up.

amother

Seagreen

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 5:26 pm

I read all 12 pages and to be honest, I am a bit in shock. Cutting out yogurt and Starbucks will not help you manage. ...

What frum people can do is have a long term plan and prepare their children (I.e. future generations )for real-life - send them to schools that will provide opportunities for college and good professions or at least common sense and critical skills, explain how much things costs, teach them hard work and don't shame them about bugaboos and dips. Instead, tell them that bugaboos are great, but you have to WORK to get it. Teach them about financial responsibility and that while Hashem provides, they need to do their histados.

For the record, my family came to US from former USSR in 1997 with $1200 and zero English. Everyone worked very hard and now we are the bugaboo-pushing, dip-buying, Starbucks-drinking people. I suggest you don't cut out yogurt, but instead, work on getting up in the world

southernbubby

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 6:37 pm

Probably most people need a combination of marketable skills and money management skills. Probably frum people in particular, need to dial back the gashmius.
I asked one of my sons what he intends to do with the kids for chol handed and he said that he was going to buy them a football and take them to the park. He doesn't think that a costly trip is necessary, even if these things are available this year. So what if the kids grow up thinking that a school holiday is a day for a father and child ball game rather than a trip to an amusement park? Same with food; a Duncan Hines cake for Yomtov dessert is nothing to be ashamed of. No one expense by itself wrecks the budget but it all adds up.

PinkFridge

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 7:18 pm

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

You manage to find cheaper candy bars.
You get a handle on your library habits. You can renew online, bundle errands, and maybe pay a little overdue here and there. The big $$ on magazines are for magazines you can't get at the library, like the Jewish magazines. And if I was in the mood for a secular magazine, I could get a cheap subscription or two for $20 max.
There's washing out aluminum foil and plastic bags frugal, and then there's healthy habits, noticing how the little things can add up and not getting daily coffee when you can make it at home for a lot less.

amother

Forestgreen

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 7:47 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

I actually do a lot of those things already. My point is, someone who is already careful probably doesn't have that much to cut back on. Certainly not in the $1,500 realm for books, coffee, and candy bars.
But if I buy a candy bar at work once a week for $2, over the course of the year, then switch to buying a big bag of discount candy, how much am I really saving? I will probably eat candy more often, have to replace the bag, and maybe instead of spending $100 over the course of a year, I save $50. Probably less. The money I use to treat myself is not making a huge difference.
And, actually, I find it easier to hold back from buying things overall when I allow myself a small splurge every now and then. Because I don't feel deprived. For example, I don't feel deprived by not getting the newest Jewish novels before YT....because I know I will get my magazine YT edition.

By the way, washing out and reusing foil...you spend money running the water to wash it. So the money comes out of your water bill instead. Etc. You can drive yourself crazy being so frugal, without it making much of a difference.

dancingqueen

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 8:11 pm

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

But small savings can become large savings accrued. It’s silly to deny it.

amother

Forestgreen

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 8:55 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

But small savings can become large savings accrued. It’s silly to deny it.

Sure, if you are genuinely buying yourself $5-10 worth of coffee or whatever every single day. But if you buy maybe once every week or two, it would take several years to add up to $1500. And, while that may be worth it to some people, I'd rather spend the few dollars it takes to treat myself once in awhile. Balance is key and like I said I have witnessed many people end up out of balance because of the overemphasis on counting every single penny when they were growing up. (Those were also the kids I saw swiping candy from the bins back when stores had them. Or getting frantically upset and terrified of their parents if they misplaced a library book and were worried about the fines.)

amother

Vermilion

Sun, Sep 06 2020, 9:02 pm

amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:

Love your post. Love it.

You are saying basically that instead of sticking head in sand, recognize frum expenses from the start is what you need to earn to "play". One dollar off 1000 dollars coupon will not improve your rat race.

But what to do if you are already stuck in quicksand?