Home
Log in / Sign Up
    Private Messages   Advanced Search   Rules   New User Guide   FAQ   Advertise   Contact Us  
Forum -> Household Management -> Finances
S/o what can frum ppl do



Post new topic   Reply to topic View latest: 24h 48h 72h

amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Sep 03 2020, 2:25 pm
I think being frum has always been a financial sacrifice and nisayon.
Before the enlightenment the only way to access many/most employment opportunities was by converting. Jews also tended to move alot to open up economic opportunities (jews moving to poland...) The spanish expulsion created converts who gave up on judism for financial security. The attraction of haskalah was intellectual but it was also about having more economic opportunities by becoming less "jewish", more integrated and educated. Early American assimilation was primarily economically driven (no jobs if didn't work on shabbos, moving to places with no jewish infrastructure for economic opportunity).

In 2020 it means struggling with the high costs of frum living. Thankfully the sacrifices we have to make it are easier - our kids won't starve to death like they did in the shtetle (I don't know of a single case in recent history of frum children dying of starvation, poverty and disease as was rampant) and we don't need to find a new job every week because of shabbos.

I think framing it this way for ourselves and our children makes the struggle easier. Its worth the sacrifice - and believe me I know the sacrifice.
Back to top

amother
OP


 

Post Fri, Sep 04 2020, 5:30 am
Bump???
Back to top

amother
Brunette


 

Post Fri, Sep 04 2020, 6:52 am
I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Telling kids that at least they're not starving and the Inquisition isn't coming for them isn't much comfort.

Here's where historical awareness comes into play. We live in an age when Hashem has returned the Jews to Israel. We have a country of our own. Religious Jews can live their lives and participate fully in society. We have religious public schools, with society funding Torah learning.

Let's focus on the thanks, not the difficulties.
Back to top

amother
Denim


 

Post Fri, Sep 04 2020, 8:26 am
So this is the part I dont get, If frum ppl are struggling and sacrificing as you say, then how is everyone able to afford the fancy strollers, the frum story's expensive clothes/expensive sheitels(enough ppl shop there as it's still in business)etc....and of course the expensive simchas(while there are ppl who do things cheaper, there are enough frum ppl spending on all these unnecessary things such that these yehudi businesses are thriving.)

So, then how is it a sacrifice?

The only ppl sacrificing are the few ppl who dont buy these expensive things in frum stores etc and make simple simchas so that they can pay tuition...this is a sacrifice because they are doing without things...so that they can send their children to yeshivas to stay frum...(instead of sending to public school and then actually having more money to spend on clothes/food etc. because public schools are free).

But, most frum ppl are shopping in frum stores buying expensive things....no sacrificing there!!
Back to top

amother
Violet


 

Post Fri, Sep 04 2020, 8:31 am
There are plenty who aren't. But if you are constantly looking over your shoulder at those who do, you won't notice the rest of us.
It's easy to look in a grocery cart and feel superior abt someone buying 5 containers of dips on erev shabbos. But if you keep looking you will see plenty of carts that don't. Or that have the ingredients to make homemade dips only. Etc.
Back to top

amother
Cyan


 

Post Fri, Sep 04 2020, 8:46 am
amother [ Brunette ] wrote:
I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Telling kids that at least they're not starving and the Inquisition isn't coming for them isn't much comfort

Here's where historical awareness comes into play. We live in an age when Hashem has returned the Jews to Israel. We have a country of our own. Religious Jews can live their lives and participate fully in society. We have religious public schools, with society funding Torah learning.

Let's focus on the thanks, not the difficulties.



I agree with this. The standard of what we expect is based on what we are used to. The fact the long ago people didn't have things id of no comfort. If my toilet won't flush and I have to use my neighbors bathroom, I won't be comforted by the fact that 200 nobody ever had toilets.
Back to top

lilies




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 04 2020, 8:50 am
amother [ Violet ] wrote:
There are plenty who aren't. But if you are constantly looking over your shoulder at those who do, you won't notice the rest of us.
It's easy to look in a grocery cart and feel superior abt someone buying 5 containers of dips on erev shabbos. But if you keep looking you will see plenty of carts that don't. Or that have the ingredients to make homemade dips only. Etc.


And there is no way to know who can afford it, who is being fiscally irresponsible, and who is splurging. There is also no way to know if mom is depressed and not functioning well and this is oneg shabbos for the family - no other cooked food. There is no way to know if spouse is abusive and the dips keep the peace at the shabbos table. There is no way to know anything.
Back to top

Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 04 2020, 8:53 am
What ARE those dips
Back to top

amother
Denim


 

Post Fri, Sep 04 2020, 8:54 am
amother [ Violet ] wrote:
There are plenty who aren't. But if you are constantly looking over your shoulder at those who do, you won't notice the rest of us.
It's easy to look in a grocery cart and feel superior abt someone buying 5 containers of dips on erev shabbos. But if you keep looking you will see plenty of carts that don't. Or that have the ingredients to make homemade dips only. Etc.


Yes, and these are the ppl who are sacrificing, but nobody can say it's the MAJORITY OF FRUM ppl SACRIFICING , the majority are spending on these luxuries/more expensive things which is what keeps these businesses still in businesses.......

(While for food, ppl may have food stamps, so food is a different category, but there's no government program paying for expensive sheitels, expensive weddings, expensive clothes in frum stores etc.)

Unless I'm missing something because if the MINORITY OR ONLY RICH PPL were spending
On these expensive things, then all the sheitel marchers, frum clothing stores, wedding halls.etc. would be out of business
Back to top

amother
Violet


 

Post Fri, Sep 04 2020, 9:00 am
Just because I am shopping in the local Jewish store doesn't mean I am buying the expensive stuff. I'm only buying hosiery and shells. Same for the other Jewish businesses. We shop in the same stores but we aren't all buying the same level of purchases.
Remember that over the top wedding expense magazine article? Judging by the surprise and reactions expressed, I doubt the majority of frum pple are actually making weddings anywhere near that level. Everyone is aware of the over the top ones. The regular average or frugal ones barely register.
Back to top

Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 04 2020, 9:00 am
amother [ Violet ] wrote:
There are plenty who aren't. But if you are constantly looking over your shoulder at those who do, you won't notice the rest of us.
It's easy to look in a grocery cart and feel superior abt someone buying 5 containers of dips on erev shabbos. But if you keep looking you will see plenty of carts that don't. Or that have the ingredients to make homemade dips only. Etc.


I always wonder what the percentage of frum people buy upscale clothing/furniture etc. (maybe it's community dependent). Because nobody I know shops in these high end stores (I know, anecdotes and they're obviously in business) but it just seems that way from the all the ads maybe? Or is it that everyone who shops there are talking about it, and all those who shop in Wal Mart for clothing and furniture are just keeping quiet? Just a thought.
Back to top

Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 04 2020, 9:04 am
amother [ Brunette ] wrote:
I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Telling kids that at least they're not starving and the Inquisition isn't coming for them isn't much comfort.

Here's where historical awareness comes into play. We live in an age when Hashem has returned the Jews to Israel. We have a country of our own. Religious Jews can live their lives and participate fully in society. We have religious public schools, with society funding Torah learning.

Let's focus on the thanks, not the difficulties.


She's suggesting that the high cost of frum living is the sacrifice we have to make nowadays (and as you agree, not a massive sacrifice), as opposed to the high cost of frum living in the olden days where in order to make a living they were often required to convert. And we were not allowed to live where we wanted (ghettos, Pale of Settlement....)

Nowadays we can enter any profession we want (almost) and we can live where we want. It's just the high cost of frum living that's the issue nowadays (I guess in the USA).

Not everyone can move to Israel for many reasons, practical, financial, idealogical....
Back to top

lilies




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Sep 04 2020, 9:21 am
Ruchel wrote:
What ARE those dips


1lb containers of tomato dip, olive dip, eggplant babaganush, jalapeno dip, red pepper dip, matbucha, chummus, tachina, and more.
Back to top

amother
OP


 

Post Mon, Sep 07 2020, 12:27 am
People have been complaining how expensive and hard it is to be frum. And it is more expensive - more kids, kosher food, tuition, have to live in certain area's = higher housing, simcha's, yom tov snd that is if you live simply and completely disregard to insane "frum standards" that some people struggle with.
Combine that with the fact that we tend to get married younger then secular people (even in very modern circles people tend to get married younger and have more kids then the secular people with comparative education). In more RW circles the men either have less education or spend time learning in kollel - which I fully support BTW - but is a long term financial sacrifice for most people who are doing it (even the for ones who have support it means starting career later in life).

My point is that if we look at it as sacrificing certain financial comfort for the privilege of being frum it makes it easier. Especially when you realize that it has always been a financial sacrifice to be frum - and really all things considered we have it really really good compared to previous generations. Its not that "its not so bad ppl used to starve" rather "its always been tough finacially and things are way better then they used to be" - I find that more hopeful, and positive. I also find that recignizing that yes it is a NISAYON makes it easier for me to avoid griping about every frum expense that comes up like certain imamothers ddi in the previous thread
Back to top

amother
OP


 

Post Mon, Sep 07 2020, 12:50 am
amother [ Denim ] wrote:
Yes, and these are the ppl who are sacrificing, but nobody can say it's the MAJORITY OF FRUM ppl SACRIFICING , the majority are spending on these luxuries/more expensive things which is what keeps these businesses still in businesses.......

(While for food, ppl may have food stamps, so food is a different category, but there's no government program paying for expensive sheitels, expensive weddings, expensive clothes in frum stores etc.)

Unless I'm missing something because if the MINORITY OR ONLY RICH PPL were spending
On these expensive things, then all the sheitel marchers, frum clothing stores, wedding halls.etc. would be out of business


The majority of people pay tuition - would not have to if frum = sacrifice
The majority of people pay extra for kosher food - would not have to if frum = sacrifice
The majority of people pay extra have more then 2 kids - would not if not frum = sacrifice
The majority of people pay extra to live in frum area's - would not have to if not frum = sacrifice

I agree with you that in the big picture it is not a crazy sacrifice, and the big cost of frum living comes frum keeping of with the cohens -which isnt a sacrafice
Back to top

amother
Bisque


 

Post Mon, Sep 07 2020, 1:35 am
I don't know, OP. I got so annoyed at the other thread, because counting pennies like coffee intake and yogurt or the like just will not help when you live in a place that has exorbitant rent and tuition. I live in Los Angeles, and between the crazy multi-million dollar houses that are impossible to afford, the tuition for any elementary school yeshiva is upwards of $20,000. It's insane. Just insane.

No, this is not some modern orthodox school that brings in Ph.Ds to teach your kid and light sabers and personal laptops. This is a real, poorly run, Rebbes with no degree type of school.

Six kids? And your tuition bill is over six figures. And financial assistance is very difficult to obtain. It's just impossible, and no amount of making my own coffee is going to help. Becoming a lawyer or a doctor isn't going to help. And when your parnassah is here, and you don't have any family on the east coast, it's not so easy to just tell people to move.
Back to top

amother
OP


 

Post Mon, Sep 07 2020, 6:58 am
amother [ Bisque ] wrote:
I don't know, OP. I got so annoyed at the other thread, because counting pennies like coffee intake and yogurt or the like just will not help when you live in a place that has exorbitant rent and tuition. I live in Los Angeles, and between the crazy multi-million dollar houses that are impossible to afford, the tuition for any elementary school yeshiva is upwards of $20,000. It's insane. Just insane.

No, this is not some modern orthodox school that brings in Ph.Ds to teach your kid and light sabers and personal laptops. This is a real, poorly run, Rebbes with no degree type of school.

Six kids? And your tuition bill is over six figures. And financial assistance is very difficult to obtain. It's just impossible, and no amount of making my own coffee is going to help. Becoming a lawyer or a doctor isn't going to help. And when your parnassah is here, and you don't have any family on the east coast, it's not so easy to just tell people to move.


This is my point - it IS a financial sacrifice to be frum - and has been for most of jewish history.
Jut realizing that this is one of the big nisyonos of frum North America in 2020 - just like the big nisayon of Spainish jewry 1492 was giving up financial comfort in Spain, or for jews in the early 20th century America keeping shabbos and loosing their jobs.

And compared to those nisyonos we have better options - for example it is much easier to move and start over in 2020 then it was in 1492....
Back to top

PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 07 2020, 10:08 am
lilies wrote:
1lb containers of tomato dip, olive dip, eggplant babaganush, jalapeno dip, red pepper dip, matbucha, chummus, tachina, and more.


Yeah, we've started to get into dips. We make our own. And not 5 per week.
Back to top

Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 07 2020, 10:33 am
lilies wrote:
1lb containers of tomato dip, olive dip, eggplant babaganush, jalapeno dip, red pepper dip, matbucha, chummus, tachina, and more.


Ok - we do not buy this
Back to top
Page 1 of 1 Recent Topics




Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Household Management -> Finances

Related Topics Replies Last Post
Affordable Frum cities
by GLUE
12 Today at 7:04 am View last post
I love frum fashion for kids
by amother
149 Today at 3:03 am View last post
I’m a size 0 and nothing fits me in the frum stores
by amother
29 Wed, Mar 27 2024, 9:14 am View last post
Do Passaic ppl tip teachers
by amother
9 Fri, Mar 22 2024, 7:36 am View last post
Looking for a frum couple to conduct a pesach sader
by amother
0 Wed, Mar 20 2024, 2:33 pm View last post