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Children make me want to move out!!
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dankbar




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 06 2020, 12:24 am
It seems like in order to get to the middle ground, you will have to go to other extreme for now by being really strict, firm & consistent.
Natural consequences are best. They don't know how to behave with friends, no friends. If friends act up, they go home. You say"in this house, such play is not allowed, calmly & firmly.
Be proactive, give them toys/games that they can play with friends so they don't get to point of doing crazy stuff. Limit sugar/junks makes them hyper. Limit the play time with friends so they dont get bored & shikkur/overtired etc.

Kids dont need to sit thru entire meal.

When my kid would tell me " I hate you....I'd respond, too bad because I will always love you anyway. It's a tease, if you don't take it personally, they stop.

If he'd say, "you are the worst mommy, I'd say you are welcome to pick a better one....
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Learning




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 06 2020, 12:27 am
They are so young. Kindergarten especially. You need to set boundaries and also give a lot of love. Don’t wait until they will be teens by than they don’t want your boundaries and not even your love. They need you now. They are practically babies. Let them be kids. Maybe they can’t sit by the table but let them play a game next to you. Play a game on the Shabbos table. Make it fun. Also children today if they have internet are very confused because they see a lot inappropriate stuff. Even movies that are not R rated are very inappropriate for little kids. You need an intervention. Do you have a relative that can come to your house for a week or few days and see it straight. You need to show the kids who is the boss. But You first need to tell yourself thst you are the boss.
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amother
Blue


 

Post Sun, Sep 06 2020, 1:05 am
I read some of the advice posted “just give them boundaries”, “don’t let them talk to you that way” and I just laugh so that I don’t cry. Some people have NO IDEA.

I have had to “be soft” and “spoil” my kids because that’s what it takes to make my house safe.

Screen time cannot be my battleground because reducing screen time (proactively to try to get them to anything else or as a punishment) makes my kids break furniture (a shattered door jamb from slamming a door, punching and shattering a window pane) or hurt me (I had a huge purple bruise on my shoulder from a 7.5 year old biting me) or pinch my toddler (he even said “I want to hurt you, but hurting her is two for the price of one”) or just physically fight so much with one another that I truly think they’ve given one another PTSD.

The “easy” days are when my son just follows me around the house goading me, “GIVE ME THE CHROMEBOOK. GIVE ME THE CHROMEBOOK. You’re not gonna win, Ema, I can keep this up for a long time. You're misbehaving, so I'm gonna take your phone away.”



Physical appropriateness has become a new thing lately. My ten year old will make deliberate eye contact with me while saying “I’m squeezing my big fat juicy pisher!” and touching himself over his clothes. Like, he’ll be alone in his room and as soon as I walk in he’ll aggressively start rubbing his groin. Or he’ll call his baby sister “deficient” because she doesn’t have a p3n15.

I have proactively spoken to him SO MANY TIMES about tznius (positive!) and boundaries and what is private vs public (neutral) and finally how this behavior is specifically making me uncomfortable and not want to be around him (not to mention NEVER EVER EVER leave my toddler daughter alone with him)...



I’ve 100% told my therapist that if an adult treated me the way my kids have I’d have filed a harassment suit (if a stranger), divorced (if a spouse) and called the cops and then left and never looked back.

But I can’t, cuz they’re MY KIDS.

It is the most absolute form of torture conceivable.

=========================

ETA: I realized this post is visible to non-members, and for the sake of my children, I have changed this post to amother.

I won’t asked for subsequent posts quoting or referring to mine to be changed, but I don’t want it to be easily searchable and linked to me.


Last edited by amother on Sun, Sep 06 2020, 11:05 am; edited 2 times in total
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trixx




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 06 2020, 1:38 am
Quote:
I read some of the advice posted “just give them boundaries”, “don’t let them talk to you that way” and I just laugh so that I don’t cry. Some people have NO IDEA.

I have had to “be soft” and “spoil” my kids because that’s what it takes to make my house safe.

Screen time cannot be my battleground because reducing screen time (proactively to try to get them to anything else or as a punishment) makes my kids break furniture (a shattered door jamb from slamming a door, punching and shattering a window pane) or hurt my toddler (they’ve even said “I want to hurt you, but hurting her is two for the price of one”) or just physically fight so much with one another that I truly think they’ve given one another PTSD.

The “easy” days are when my son just follows me around the house goading me, “GIVE ME THE CHROMEBOOK. GIVE ME THE CHROMEBOOK. You’re not gonna win, Ema, I can keep this up for a long time. You're misbehaving, so I'm gonna take your phone away.”



Physical appropriateness has become a new thing lately. My ten year old will make deliberate eye contact with me while saying “I’m squeezing my big fat juicy pisher!” and touching himself over his clothes. Like, he’ll be alone in his room reading a book and as soon as I walk in he’ll aggressively start rubbing his groin. Or he’ll call his baby sister “deficient” because she doesn’t have a p3n15.

I have proactively spoken to him SO MANY TIMES about tznius (positive!) and boundaries and what is private vs public (neutral) and finally how this behavior is specifically making me uncomfortable and not want to be around him (not to mention NEVER EVER EVER leave my toddler daughter alone with him)...



I’ve 100% told my therapist that if an adult treated me the way my kids have I’d have filed a harassment suit (if a stranger), divorced (if a spouse) and called the cops and then left and never looked back.

But I can’t, cuz they’re MY KIDS.

It is the most absolute form of torture conceivable.


I feel like I remember you posting about some of this in the past.
But you know none of what you wrote is normal, right? Ie the answer to OP is still to enforce boundaries. And your case needs special help.

*edit to take out quoted sn


Last edited by trixx on Sun, Sep 06 2020, 8:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Blue


 

Post Sun, Sep 06 2020, 1:46 am
trixx wrote:
I feel like I remember you posting about some of this in the past.
But you know none of what you wrote is normal, right? Ie the answer to OP is still to enforce boundaries. And your case needs special help.


Boundaries are good, I agree!! I try to enforce them whenever I can!

I’m empathizing that it’s SO HARD sometimes and only someone “in the trenches” in your particular situation can pick the right battles. And sometimes choosing not to battle (over screen time, or rude language for example) is the best you can do, and surviving a day with everyone intact is a successful one.

(Anyway, I don’t want to make this post about me, I don’t mean to hijack with my horror stories. I should have a new blog thread with updates... my social worker has transferred our case to a new person, we start on Tuesday. I’m davening.)


Last edited by amother on Sun, Sep 06 2020, 11:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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dankbar




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 06 2020, 2:14 am
Amother Blue, if your son is deliberately having inappropriate touch, maybe you need to check if he wasnt abused somewhere. Maybe that is whats making him act so out of bounds in general.

Last edited by dankbar on Sun, Sep 06 2020, 6:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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banana123




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 06 2020, 2:22 am
amother [ Blue ] wrote:
Physical appropriateness has become a new thing lately. My ten year old will make deliberate eye contact with me while saying “I’m squeezing my big fat juicy pisher!” and touching himself over his clothes. Like, he’ll be alone in his room and as soon as I walk in he’ll aggressively start rubbing his groin. Or he’ll call his baby sister “deficient” because she doesn’t have a p3n15.

I have proactively spoken to him SO MANY TIMES about tznius (positive!) and boundaries and what is private vs public (neutral) and finally how this behavior is specifically making me uncomfortable and not want to be around him (not to mention NEVER EVER EVER leave my toddler daughter alone with him)...



I’ve 100% told my therapist that if an adult treated me the way my kids have I’d have filed a harassment suit (if a stranger), divorced (if a spouse) and called the cops and then left and never looked back.

But I can’t, cuz they’re MY KIDS.

It is the most absolute form of torture conceivable.

Please get this child into therapy, stat.

Your 10yo has learned that he can control his mother (prototype for all women and girls in his life) by m*sturbating in front of you. In other words, his genitals are a source of power for him, a way for him to control women and girls.

The moment he reaches puberty he will expand that to include using his genitals in other ways to control and exert power over women and girls.

I would not trust a person like this around boys, either, and you yourself said that you cannot leave your toddler daughter alone with him, so you already know that this behavior is dangerous to others.

This child needs therapy and a lot of help, and even that doesn't guarantee he won't harass or abuse people down the line.

For the sake of your entire community, please get this child help fast. And if help doesn't work, he may need to sit in juvenile jail and go through some rehab. He cannot be allowed to reach puberty with so much "experience" in using his genitals to control others.

I applaud you for writing under your username. If you tell us where you live we may be able to refer you to someone who can help.

Edited out of respect to the poster's decision to go anon.


Last edited by banana123 on Sun, Sep 06 2020, 2:36 pm; edited 2 times in total
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dankbar




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 06 2020, 2:23 am
Op, if your husband will stop kiddush, every time he is interrupted, it will turn into a game of back & forth & won't stop.
He should either ignore the interruptions & forge ahead with kiddush, or if it gets impossible, you say " since you can't listen to kiddush nicely, you will need to stay in your room till Tatty finishes making kiddush".

I know people who put their young kids to sleep at night meal, in the summer because it gets late. Either they need to nap beforehand or sleep by meal. Too late for young kids.

Also, if they are getting out of hand before motzei shabbos, you can put your little kid to sleep before shabbos is over.

Before you daughter goes out to play, you should give her a time she needs to be back. If she is not back in time, she cannot go out to play next time.


Last edited by dankbar on Sun, Sep 06 2020, 2:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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banana123




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 06 2020, 2:26 am
dankbar wrote:
Bigsis if your son is deliberately having inappropriate touch, maybe you need to check if he wasnt abused somewhere. Maybe that is whats making him act so out of bounds in general.

This. It's very possible that he was abused and that's why he's acting out like this.

But even if he wasn't abused he still needs help.
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dankbar




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 06 2020, 2:33 am
banana123 wrote:
This. It's very possible that he was abused and that's why he's acting out like this.

But even if he wasn't abused he still needs help.


He keeps saying that he will kill his teacher, maybe something happened in school.

Banana, I agree that the kid needs help, but talking so harshly to amother blue, is probably making her cry even more.

You can say it nicely, that with the right help , he will G-d willing turn into a mentch.
The last thing she wants to hear now, is to lock up a 10 yr old in jail.


Last edited by dankbar on Sun, Sep 06 2020, 6:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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TwinsMommy




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 06 2020, 2:38 am
bigsis144----- I have autistic twins (13) and my house is much more like yours than like OP's. Just wanted to tell you that you are NOT ALONE. One of my twins isn't so violent to us anymore though needs a lot of intervention support at public school for behaviors. But the other twin has REALLY been struggling this summer--- on 5 stong psych meds and lots of therapy he bites us, kicks us, pinches and punches us---- it's getting harder and harder because he's 13 and STRONG. He was already kicked out of public school four years ago. And about the touching self--- my son isn't allowed to touch it in public--- whenever he does I simply without fanfare send him to his room. I know what he's doing in there and so does HaShem but it's between him and HaShem. And yes, he's even lied down on top of me saying "I'm going to put my aiver in your private part". So I calmly said that's not allowed and sent him to his room. He had a massive fit because I didn't let him touch me (even for hugs) for a couple of hours after that. When he was calm we discussed why it was inappropriate.

OP--- even though my kids' issues are INSANE...... if either of my kids spills, I make them clean it up. Even when there are tantrums--- I wait out the tantrum and they get no privelige until the spill is gone. The roof stuff and not coming back for hours stuff are dangerous and I'd probably not allow them out of the house for the next few Shabbosim because of those infractions. My daughter RARELY gets out of her jammies on Shabbos and never is at the table for kiddush and refuses to wash or bentsch..... it's not a battle I'm willing to fight. If she's calm and letting the rest of us do it, I let her read in her shorts and t shirt because fighting the battle triggers my son and then Shabbos becomes a matter of who needs the hospital. My rule is if you leave the house you have to be dressed for Shabbos. If you DO wash and make motzi, you must bentsch. At least she keeps kosher and keeps Shabbos other than the refusal behaviors. Even with all of my son's violence he always dresses for Shabbos and washes/motzi/bentsches--- it's incredible. She sees that and will come back to that whenever she's ready I hope.

Good luck to everyone struggling with parenting-- HARDEST JOB I'VE EVER DONE! You'll notice I only have two children and there's a reason why.
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Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 06 2020, 2:47 am
Twins Mommy - you're a hero. You are the best thing that could ever have happened for your children. I am so impressed by what you wrote. Please teach me more about parenting!
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banana123




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 06 2020, 2:57 am
dankbar wrote:
He keeps saying that he will kill his teacher, maybe something happened in school.

Banana, I agree that the kid needs help, but talking so harshly to amother blue is probably making her cry even more.

You can say it nicely, that with the right help , he will G-d willing turn into a mentch.
The last thing she wants to hear now, is to lock up a 10 yr old in jail.

G-d willing, with the right help, amother blue's kid will turn into a mentsch. In the meantime, the child needed help ages ago, and it doesn't seem like he's received the help he needed.

In the meantime, time is running out, his HPA axis is probably already dumping hormones into his system and if this continues until puberty - which is less than a year and a half away - then I am much more afraid for the children and adults he will prey on now and later than that his mother will cry. I don't want amother blue in tears she needs to act now to avoid him being in jail later.

Right now he doesn't need jail but that is where he will end up if this doesn't end.

I live in Israel. Recently we had a gang rape case. Most of the suspects arrested are minors -ages 16, 17, maybe some are 16. The victim was a 16yo girl.

Everyone asks, how could high schoolers do such a thing to another teenager? This is how. No boundaries, do what you want, control others.

Now those teenage suspects are under arrest. Some are now "only" under house arrest. At least some of the suspects will probably land in jail.

May amother blue have the strength to take the steps to ensure she is never the mother of the rapist, and that she never becomes the mother of both the rapist and the victim.

Edited out of respect to amother blue's decision to go anon.


Last edited by banana123 on Sun, Sep 06 2020, 2:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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banana123




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 06 2020, 2:59 am
Rappel wrote:
Twins Mommy - you're a hero. You are the best thing that could ever have happened for your children. I am so impressed by what you wrote. Please teach me more about parenting!

Sounds like she is very calm, very firm, and very consistent?
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ChanieMommy




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 06 2020, 3:40 am
Cheer up! It's really hard with a bunch of small children, and you can never achieve the discipline you will have in few years' time, once they are all in school-age. So just know that you are swimming upstream right now.

Children are in general ready to be constructive and disciplined when there is something in it for themselves. Not materially, don't rely on corruption (if you behave nicely, you get xyz), but they have to feel they are part of something they can be proud of. think soccer team. Or youth orchestra.

A youth orchestra works like this: during rehearsal, there is iron discipline. They have to sit still. They have to play exactly their part and nothing else... there might be a bit of humor and lots of encouragement from the conductor. But all members accept that you cannot chat during rehearsal, and the whole rehearsal is built on improving the precision, etc. of what they play.

The conductor needs to have charisma. He needs to be able to focus the attention of each and every one of them on the music, so that a beautiful, coordinated piece will emerge. He also has to be uncompromising about discipline during rehearsal. Because if every member of the orchestra takes just 20 seconds to whisper something to his neighbour, with 20 members, half of the rehearsal will be gone.

Also, if a conductor cedes a little bit on discipline, those who are discplined will resent those who disturb. So the conductor cannot let this happen, in a spirit of fairness. It is unfair to allow 2-3 undisciplined members to ruin rehearsals for all the rest of them. It's not democratic either. Because the majority wants a constructive rehearsal...

And, on the other hand, there are pauses... where they can let themselves go. Because we know they need a pause after 20, 45 or 60 minutes, according to their age...

So it might be constructive to approach shabbat in this spirit.

The more the children do for shabbat, the more they will feel it belongs to them.

Bake the challot together. Make hamotzi on the challot the children made. Or have the children make hamotzi over their own challa.

Give the children tasks setting and decorating the table, e.g. make little place cards for everyone.

Give the children tasks about the program during the seuda: will two children make a play from a scene in a parsha? Will one child organise a short quiz about the parsha? Will one child make a drawing that will stand in the center of the table and explain it during the seuda?

Also assign tasks on who brings in which course and who clears the plates for which course, who puts them in the dishwasher, etc...

On the other hand: don't expect them to sit for too long. You might want to skip soup or fish, so that the meal is shorter. You might want to stick to just one course and dessert... Or you might introduce something where they can move around and expand energy between courses...

As a general rule: you can never tell children you want just your peace and quiet, and that they should leave you alone. You cannot withdraw from them. As soon as they feel that you want your alone-time, they will find ways of attracting negative attention.

To achieve peace and quiet, you have to involve yourself in order to focus their attention, and then they can leave you alone... you have to give them to do something constructive, something they can be proud of...


Last edited by ChanieMommy on Sun, Sep 06 2020, 3:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Sep 06 2020, 3:45 am
OP here - thanks for all the answers. I'll think it through and discuss some of the suggestions with dh. We'll have to change our parenting style drastically. Not easy - we're both kind of low energy people who hate conflict. On top of my job, I find it very hard to muster the nerves and energy to put the children into their place. Like, customers pester me all day and then I come home groggy and have the children pester me. It's like an extra shift every day and including Shabbatot and Yom Tov. The household also needs attention in between, of course. How do other people get the energy to keep going? Dh helps a lot with household chores, but I sometimes zonk out in the evenings even before the children go to bed and then have to get up again to get them to bed. If I overdo on coffee, I just get jittery and twitchy.

I'll anyway try to get the most problematic ds evaluated at a child development center. He's been there 3 years ago - back then it was for speech delay, which he no longer has. Now it's the behavior.
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TwinsMommy




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 06 2020, 3:48 am
Rappel wrote:
Twins Mommy - you're a hero. You are the best thing that could ever have happened for your children. I am so impressed by what you wrote. Please teach me more about parenting!


Not a hero. Just a mom awake at 345 am because I'm desperate for me time. Just trying to keep my son out of the psych hospital and my daughter from being injured. Some days are ok. Other days I feel like a miserable failure.
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ChanieMommy




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 06 2020, 3:51 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
OP here - thanks for all the answers. I'll think it through and discuss some of the suggestions with dh. We'll have to change our parenting style drastically. Not easy - we're both kind of low energy people who hate conflict. On top of my job, I find it very hard to muster the nerves and energy to put the children into their place. Like, customers pester me all day and then I come home groggy and have the children pester me. It's like an extra shift every day and including Shabbatot and Yom Tov. The household also needs attention in between, of course. How do other people get the energy to keep going? Dh helps a lot with household chores, but I sometimes zonk out in the evenings even before the children go to bed and then have to get up again to get them to bed. If I overdo on coffee, I just get jittery and twitchy.

I'll anyway try to get the most problematic ds evaluated at a child development center. He's been there 3 years ago - back then it was for speech delay, which he no longer has. Now it's the behavior.


I suppose that this factor is key...


Maybe you need a short rest in between work and home, a little pleasant alone-time before you come back to your house. A moment where you can focus, push the pestering clients aside, change roles, and find a positive attitude towards your children.

Children want your attention. If they can't achieve positive attention, they will try it the negative way.

So it is important to invest enough effort to keep on the positive side of things, not to go down the road of negative attention.
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dankbar




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 06 2020, 3:56 am
Op, you also want to be proactive & keep things positive, so they do the right thing, without having to resort to punishment, which will only turn into a power struggle. Instead of saying, you are not getting dessert because you didnt sit nicely, which will make them fight back & turn into war, you might want to try to say: Whoever will sit nicely & eat their chicken, will get dessert. Then praise the child that makes an effort. That's called positive reinforcement. They will all follow.
Another way, is natural progression.
After we are done eating the chicken, dessert will be served. Then you can comment, I see Chany is ready for dessert, because she's done with chicken, or now that everyone finished the main, we are on to dessert!
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banana123




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 06 2020, 3:58 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
OP here - thanks for all the answers. I'll think it through and discuss some of the suggestions with dh. We'll have to change our parenting style drastically. Not easy - we're both kind of low energy people who hate conflict. On top of my job, I find it very hard to muster the nerves and energy to put the children into their place. Like, customers pester me all day and then I come home groggy and have the children pester me. It's like an extra shift every day and including Shabbatot and Yom Tov. The household also needs attention in between, of course. How do other people get the energy to keep going? Dh helps a lot with household chores, but I sometimes zonk out in the evenings even before the children go to bed and then have to get up again to get them to bed. If I overdo on coffee, I just get jittery and twitchy.

I'll anyway try to get the most problematic ds evaluated at a child development center. He's been there 3 years ago - back then it was for speech delay, which he no longer has. Now it's the behavior.

Can you go to sleep when your kids do? Leave the mess, it won't run away. But get some sleep.
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