College ds feels embarrassed by something I did

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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Teenagers and Older children

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amother

Babypink

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 4:43 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

If you didnt watch the video you have no idea how the woman was ACTUALLY dressed. Her knees and collar bone were covered. She had long sleeves on and the dress was NOT skin tight at all. Think straight dress, thats all. There was nothing about this dress that would not uphold the values even within the modern world.

The question is not about whether or not it's tzanua. The question is can a mother contact her grown sons school and express disappointment in an official video sent out by their administration.

And the answer is yes. She can. She shouldn't have mentioned her son. But she can absolutely express that she thought it didn't align the the schools purported values.

amother

Red

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 5:24 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

I really resent being dragged into this tempest in a tea pot .
But like many posters have already said...
Many many women wear outfits that are LOT MORE provocative and banal on the streets of BP and Lakewood.
And they still consider themselves to be " real yeshivish " families..
The stewardess in the video was very tastefully dressed for YU..
So stop it.. Just stop it...

And BMG is not putting out a video with such an image.

There is a big difference between how certain individuals dress, and how an institution presents itself. OP had a right to express disappointment in the PR video put out by the school. Other than mentioning her son, which perhaps should have been omitted, she was not interfering in his life.

BetsyTacy

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 5:35 pm

Sorry, Shabbaticoming, I was being America-centric in my use of the acronym VPL. I think Oprah Winfrey or one of Oprah's guests popularized the term many years ago--it stands for visibile panty lines, and is a fashion don't. In my opinion, and I believe many others as well, it is not in the spirit of the modern orthodoxy represented certainly by the religious authorities of YU to show one's panty lines.I would think that is considered a line of tznius whether or not one agrees about how much of one's elbow or knee must be covered.

PinkFridge

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 5:48 pm

zaq wrote:

Vulgar Public Lewdness?
Vicious Personal Libel?
Vast Potential Lasciviousness?

Vancouver Public Library.
When one googles VPL, one will eventually get there. Hint: Visible....

amother

Forestgreen

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 5:54 pm

BetsyTacy wrote:

Things I miss about not being frum: never even thinking about, or considering, whether or not anyone could see my underwear

amother

Papaya

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 5:55 pm

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

Would your answer change if she wasn't paying tuition? Let's say her son was supporting himself?

What about if the son was a married man and a student at YU. Could his wife send out this same letter to the dean and rebbeim, when it would be obvious to all that she was this student's wife?

Do you not draw any lines in family member's rights to voice very vocal, public disagreement in your workplace or university?

amother

Babypink

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 6:04 pm

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

No it wouldn't change. If an institution that leads the way strays from its core values. Anyone who is aligned with them has a right to say something.

amother

Papaya

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 6:10 pm

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

No it wouldn't change. If an institution that leads the way strays from its core values. Anyone who is aligned with them has a right to say something.

Whether or not the institution has strayed is your own subjective call. It's not a fact.

I'm glad my family members are not of the opinion that righteous indignation is ok in my place of study or work. They have enough to keep them busy in their own lives.

amother

Babypink

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 6:16 pm

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

Yes. But I suppose everything is. I think OP was fine. You don't. That's also subjective.

But in any case. If the question was less subjective. If the lady in the video was in a bikini. Would she then be allowed to say something? Or would that be righteous indignation?

WhatFor

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 7:18 pm

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

How do "rights" play a role in this? Does OP have a legal right to write to or call the school? Yes she does. If someone does this, can it affect their family member and their family member's daily experience in their work or school environment? Yes it can.

Would I appreciate it if I were the family member? No, I wouldn't. Most of us don't want our parents to call our workplace (or university) to complain to our boss about some issue they have (or that I have) with how the workplace/uni is run. Cue the people saying THEY wouldn't care. Good for you, but in each situation, IMO it should be about what that family member wants. It could affect their relationships with the people they see every single day. What's wrong with asking, "I want to complain to the school you attend daily. Would you mind if I did?"

Let's not pretend people who do this are living in a vacuum. They have family members. I don't get how "rights" play into this. Just because you may do something doesn't mean you should.

amother

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 9:10 pm

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

Things I miss about not being frum: never even thinking about, or considering, whether or not anyone could see my underwear

Again my point was about speaking up/upsetting my son- not tzniut in general...but it is an interesting point you make. Yes I do my best to follow halacha and the guidelines given to me buy my LOR, but I also have in mind, "Would my grandfather be embarrassed if I wore an outfit like this?" It wouldn't make a difference if I was an American jew, a catholic Italian, a Buddhist Indian... pick a combination- if my grandfather would look at me and say- really??? So that is my secondary litmus test...

For those that are saying sleeves down to the wrist, knees covered, collar bone covered- what if I had dark blue saran wrap on and all those things were covered- I am doing exactly what I am told to do- everything is covered- but really- not so much the spirit of the law.

Another important positive from this was I am really proud of is how my son and I could have a fair conversation sharing our view points.

Oh an for the poster who commented about mommy being too involved because I knew about the dress of the professor- when your son is "trapped" at home taking classes on zoom and barely has any social interactions with his classmates once class is over- mom is here to listen to you vent. In the olden days I would have had no clue.

amother

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 9:20 pm

WhatFor wrote:

There is a sense of pride I take in YU- how it has grown- what it does for so many in different communities. The leadership it takes to run this massive organization. The achdus it can create on many different levels. The video was embarrassing to me. If one is in a leadership role, there will be people who share their disappointment- which I did and I want to say again how FABULOUS the Dean is! She wrote me a wonderful letter in response- not saying if she agreed or not with me, but she is a special lady!

This is different than calling my son's boss or speaking to a professor- it is a Torah institution.

I am confused why posters on here see YU "less frum" than it is as an institution. No it is not BMG- that's a different wonderful institution with a different hashkafa even though I think we all have the same set of values- I hope that is to love each other and respect each other and value each others gifts that have been given us.

amother

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 9:23 pm

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

ooh- that is a good question to think about- does a wife have the same rights to voice their opinion... I would love to hear your thoughts.

soap suds

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 9:45 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Those that say sleeves to the wrists, etc. ALSO say no saran wrap. It's not one or the other. Everything has to be covered AND it can't be form-fitting.

WhatFor

Mon, Sep 07 2020, 9:56 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I feel like we're going in circles here because I think you and I just disagree. Your response is all about YOUR relationship with YU and how embarrassed YOU felt by seeing the video. Yes, you can say whatever you want to the school, but if anyone connects it to your son, it can affect how he is treated by people there. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. But it's possible it could.

Maybe some staff would tiptoe around him more, "that's the guy whose mom likes to start stuff". Maybe not. But it's possible it could.

Your following post is again about "rights". People on both sides of this issue kept raising this, and again, I don't think it's relevant. If I believe women are being treated unfairly or are being harassed at my alma mater, I may have the legal "right" to prance topless outside its front gate carrying a big sign that says "this is NOT consent". To make it more like your situation, I can also write letters to the Dean, whomever. But if I have an adult child that goes to that institution, and my writing in could affect their experience there, maybe I wouldn't make this the hill I die on without their okay.

You keep raising the fact that it's a Torah institution like it would change the validity of what I'm saying. Doing things in the name of frumkeit isn't a "get out of jail free" card to do whatever you want and affect whomever you want. You're being super "machmir" in one area at the expense of being super lax in another.

amother

Papaya

Tue, Sep 08 2020, 12:33 am

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

As Whatfor put it, just because she is allowed to say something doesnt mean she should.

There are millions of worthy causes out there, and one doesn't need to davka choose one that would cause an adult family member discomfort. As Whatfor said, why choose davka this hill to die on?

If she were wearing a bikini, op could either empower her son to speak up, or find another place to invest her energies in. Writing her adult son's teachers is not a good option.

amother

Wine

Tue, Sep 08 2020, 1:59 am

If a college would treat a student poorly because of an opinion his mother voiced that would not reflect well upon them
It’s not a workplace it’s an institution of higher learning to which the parents are paying tuition for their child! The father as well as the mother certainly has a right to voice their opinion!

DrMom

Tue, Sep 08 2020, 2:28 am

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

Of course she *can.* Anybody *can* do this.

The question is whether it is a wise thing to do.

I don't think it is, especially over something so innocuous.

I also think it depends on how it is worded. If you make constant reference in your letter to your son, then it is weird and you sound like an overprotective helicopter parent who can't cut the apron strings. If you stick to the topic of the video, it will go over better.

amother

Wheat

Tue, Sep 08 2020, 2:52 am

DrMom wrote:

This exactly. And it is completely normal for her son to be upset and embarrassed as op said herself she referenced both of her sons in the email, which most likely has been forwarded and passed around, sounds like it has definitely been viewed by a few different people that she knows of, no doubt there are others. And she spoke to a professor about it as well. There are a few ways for word to get around, and by now there are definitely others there who will make the connection to her son. It's really unfair to him, since he wasn't asked for input prior to this email being sent. Once you send an email, you have no control where it gets forwarded or who reads it.

For all the posts saying, what if it was a bikini...well, it wasn't.

amother

Magenta

Tue, Sep 08 2020, 3:37 am

The language here is so interesting. As a BT whose children are young, I'm really surprised to hear the way that some of you talk about college. From my perspective, you may "send your children to," "be a parent at," or "pay tuition to" a high school. But these aren't phrases I would use with college. College-age adults choose where they go to school. They pay tuition (even if the money is coming out of mom and dad's bank account). If you don't pay for tuition one semester, the debt collectors won't come banging down your door. They'll be calling the person who attended the school and agreed to pay tuition. Edit to clarify: they won't be coming after the parents for the money, they'll be coming after the student.

I agree with those who say that there wouldn't be a problem with writing the letter as an alumna or a community member. (And, FWIW, I also wouldn't wear that dress.)

I also think it's wonderful, OP, that your son evidently feels that he can trust you with his feelings, and it seems that your children are very supported and loved. While I'm not at this stage of parenthood yet, I am an adult child of parents who "cut the cord" very early. My parents stopped giving any money or paying for anything as soon as I was old enough to work. They didn't help with college, other than to cosign the loans (for which I was very grateful). They recently were surprised that I was disappointed with their lack of emotional support, because they felt that once someone was an adult, the parents are no longer responsible for any amount of support (including emotional). They feel that this is their time to live their life, and I shouldn't depend on them.

This approach has been very difficult for me and I've spent a lot of time in therapy trying to work through my pain and the rejection that I feel.

But still, I have gained so many valuable skills from "fending for myself." I'm very happy that I was responsible for myself at an age when my mistakes were small, and I wasn't a wife or a parent. When I bit off more than I could chew and I failed a class, it was awful but at least I could retake it. When I lost a job because I'd misread the schedule, there weren't children depending on me. The stakes were just high enough for me to feel the sting of my poor decisions and learn from them. People mess up when they're learning new things, that's just the way of things. I'm happy I was able to mess up in an environment where it didn't cost me very much (relative to now).

I can only speak for myself, I am not at ALL saying that this is the way your son feels, but if I were your son I would feel so grateful to have a mom who cared so much about me. And I would also feel like I wasn't really sure where my values ended and yours began. I would always have that sliver of doubt in the back of my mind--"Do I believe this because it's what I believe? Or is it just that I really really want to be on the same page as my mom and dad?" So even when we were on the same page I would always be wondering, are we really?

This year, I couldn't help but roll my eyes a little as I watched women (some of them ten or more years my senior) completely lose their minds over making Pesach. I've been making (and hosting) Pesach for years, of course, including the sedarim, and while it's certainly a fair amount of work I would have imagined it would be easier after decades of watching someone else do it (and having your mom on speed dial to give you advice). But I was wrong to think that way. It's normal to be nervous in a brand new situation. And I was so so proud when I saw all the posts of "It wasn't as bad as I thought it would be!" and "I'm going to do this again! Well, not next year, but maybe the year after."

It's hard sometimes as a BT to figure out which community norms (even the ones I struggle with) are Torah values that I should work to internalize, and which are "extra." I WI say that it's often striking to me (and I have heard this from other BTs as well) how dependent many adult frum children are on their parents, even after being married themselves. I'm not saying that this is wrong, and like I said above I think the EMOTIONAL support component is necessary and wonderful, but it also feels really good to have complete and total agency over your life and the choices you make as an adult. I really believe it's possible to have both.

Also, OP, thank you for your service as a military parent. I'm sure it's not easy, but I am grateful that there are brave young men and women who choose to stand up and defend our homeland even when they don't have to. And I'm grateful to the parents who raise them, too.

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