College ds feels embarrassed by something I did

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Sep 08 2020, 4:45 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Again my point was about speaking up/upsetting my son- not tzniut in general...but it is an interesting point you make. Yes I do my best to follow halacha and the guidelines given to me buy my LOR, but I also have in mind, "Would my grandfather be embarrassed if I wore an outfit like this?" It wouldn't make a difference if I was an American jew, a catholic Italian, a Buddhist Indian... pick a combination- if my grandfather would look at me and say- really??? So that is my secondary litmus test...

For those that are saying sleeves down to the wrist, knees covered, collar bone covered- what if I had dark blue saran wrap on and all those things were covered- I am doing exactly what I am told to do- everything is covered- but really- not so much the spirit of the law.

Another important positive from this was I am really proud of is how my son and I could have a fair conversation sharing our view points.

Oh an for the poster who commented about mommy being too involved because I knew about the dress of the professor- when your son is "trapped" at home taking classes on zoom and barely has any social interactions with his classmates once class is over- mom is here to listen to you vent. In the olden days I would have had no clue.

Thats a whole different story OP. The dress the lady was wearing on the video was nothing like saran wrap. It was sticking to her body. Yes, it was form fitting but not clinging at all.

amother

Wheat

Tue, Sep 08 2020, 8:36 am

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

The language here is so interesting. As a BT whose children are young, I'm really surprised to hear the way that some of you talk about college. From my perspective, you may "send your children to," "be a parent at," or "pay tuition to" a high school. But these aren't phrases I would use with college. College-age adults choose where they go to school. They pay tuition (even if the money is coming out of mom and dad's bank account). If you don't pay for tuition one semester, the debt collectors won't come banging down your door. They'll be calling the person who attended the school and agreed to pay tuition. Edit to clarify: they won't be coming after the parents for the money, they'll be coming after the student.

I agree with those who say that there wouldn't be a problem with writing the letter as an alumna or a community member. (And, FWIW, I also wouldn't wear that dress.)

I also think it's wonderful, OP, that your son evidently feels that he can trust you with his feelings, and it seems that your children are very supported and loved. While I'm not at this stage of parenthood yet, I am an adult child of parents who "cut the cord" very early. My parents stopped giving any money or paying for anything as soon as I was old enough to work. They didn't help with college, other than to cosign the loans (for which I was very grateful). They recently were surprised that I was disappointed with their lack of emotional support, because they felt that once someone was an adult, the parents are no longer responsible for any amount of support (including emotional). They feel that this is their time to live their life, and I shouldn't depend on them.

This approach has been very difficult for me and I've spent a lot of time in therapy trying to work through my pain and the rejection that I feel.

But still, I have gained so many valuable skills from "fending for myself." I'm very happy that I was responsible for myself at an age when my mistakes were small, and I wasn't a wife or a parent. When I bit off more than I could chew and I failed a class, it was awful but at least I could retake it. When I lost a job because I'd misread the schedule, there weren't children depending on me. The stakes were just high enough for me to feel the sting of my poor decisions and learn from them. People mess up when they're learning new things, that's just the way of things. I'm happy I was able to mess up in an environment where it didn't cost me very much (relative to now).

I can only speak for myself, I am not at ALL saying that this is the way your son feels, but if I were your son I would feel so grateful to have a mom who cared so much about me. And I would also feel like I wasn't really sure where my values ended and yours began. I would always have that sliver of doubt in the back of my mind--"Do I believe this because it's what I believe? Or is it just that I really really want to be on the same page as my mom and dad?" So even when we were on the same page I would always be wondering, are we really?

This year, I couldn't help but roll my eyes a little as I watched women (some of them ten or more years my senior) completely lose their minds over making Pesach. I've been making (and hosting) Pesach for years, of course, including the sedarim, and while it's certainly a fair amount of work I would have imagined it would be easier after decades of watching someone else do it (and having your mom on speed dial to give you advice). But I was wrong to think that way. It's normal to be nervous in a brand new situation. And I was so so proud when I saw all the posts of "It wasn't as bad as I thought it would be!" and "I'm going to do this again! Well, not next year, but maybe the year after."

It's hard sometimes as a BT to figure out which community norms (even the ones I struggle with) are Torah values that I should work to internalize, and which are "extra." I WI say that it's often striking to me (and I have heard this from other BTs as well) how dependent many adult frum children are on their parents, even after being married themselves. I'm not saying that this is wrong, and like I said above I think the EMOTIONAL support component is necessary and wonderful, but it also feels really good to have complete and total agency over your life and the choices you make as an adult. I really believe it's possible to have both.

Also, OP, thank you for your service as a military parent. I'm sure it's not easy, but I am grateful that there are brave young men and women who choose to stand up and defend our homeland even when they don't have to. And I'm grateful to the parents who raise them, too.

But, your points contradict each other. The women losing their minds over Pesach are probably like that because they've had over involved parents constantly hovering over and rushing to smooth things over and take care of them.

SixOfWands

Tue, Sep 08 2020, 11:14 am

amother [ Wine ] wrote:

If a college would treat a student poorly because of an opinion his mother voiced that would not reflect well upon them
It’s not a workplace it’s an institution of higher learning to which the parents are paying tuition for their child! The father as well as the mother certainly has a right to voice their opinion!

Bills are sent to the students if they're over 18. Our students (not at YU) have to agree to allow us to see their bills.

At college orientation, the school talks to parents about these like this. The directive is clear. STAY OUT. If your student has an issue, let your student deal with it. You can help, direct, advise, support. But when you write the letter, you treat your student like a 3 year old. And schools take note of that.

amother

Magenta

Tue, Sep 08 2020, 11:50 am

amother [ Wheat ] wrote:

I agree. Can I ask, which point did I make that contradicted that?

amother

Wheat

Tue, Sep 08 2020, 12:10 pm

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

I agree. Can I ask, which point did I make that contradicted that?

? Your whole post. You said you wish your parents had been more involved. But you don't like the results of adults with super involved parents, like your pesach example. Cant have your cake and eat it too in this regard

amother

Magenta

Tue, Sep 08 2020, 12:36 pm

amother [ Wheat ] wrote:

Maybe I wasn't so clear, I was insomnia posting. I wish that my parents had been more EMOTIONALLY supportive but I'm grateful for what I gained from being thrown in the deep end.

I think you can. I think you can listen, and validate, and encourage, but make space for your children to make their own decisions. Not the same at all, but when my 3yo gets frustrated about the puzzle she's doing, I give her a hug and tell her that I see she's frustrated and I'm here for her. But I don't finish the puzzle, I let her figure it out.

I know my post was sort of long and rambly, but esp the first paragraph I thought it was pretty clear that I don't agree with OPs perspective about how much say a parent has at college. That doesn't mean I think she's a bad mom--I feel that there's nuance here. I really do think it sounds like her son trusts her and feels very loved, even though I don't think the letter was appropriate.

zaq

Tue, Sep 08 2020, 3:33 pm

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

No it wouldn't change. If an institution that leads the way strays from its core values. Anyone who is aligned with them has a right to say something.

This.
Suppose you work for the government. Are your family members now barred from criticizing the government at large or the agency you work for?

Not at all. Unless, of course, you work for Donald Trump, in which case everyone in your extended family, neighborhood and every graduating class since kindergarten is under strict gag orders.

amother

Wheat

Tue, Sep 08 2020, 4:00 pm

zaq wrote:

I think you just don't remember what it is like for young adults trying to be seen as a mature entity separate from mom and dad. Especially in the frum world with a lot of enmeshment where people aren't fully recognized as adults until they marry.

amother

Babypink

Tue, Sep 08 2020, 4:05 pm

amother [ Wheat ] wrote:

You (or maybe another poster) gave the example of spouses also. But now it's about young adults?

There is a lot of enmeshment in every world. It's not a cultural thing it's a character trait that many humans have.

This is not enmeshment.

She wasn't even speaking on behalf of her son. She just used him as an example (big mistake).

People telling her she is involved in her son's relations life was disgusting and most likely malicious.

OP was within her rights. She just shouldn't have mentioned her son.

amother

Wheat

Tue, Sep 08 2020, 4:08 pm

My response was to zaq. And if you read all my responses you will see I never said anything of the kind as you alude to.

zaq

Tue, Sep 08 2020, 4:27 pm

I totally get the ds embarrassment. Mom should not have mentioned his name because he has nothing to do with the issue. But his mom had every right to write to the administration. Fine world we'd have if parents had to first get their political activities cleared by their dc because their dc might be embarrassed.

This is not a mom fighting with a prof to get his grade changed; this is a member of a community objecting to a community institution's action that conflicts with its principles. If her ds is embarrassed by his mom taking a stand, so be it. Life will provide him with no dearth of embarrassing circumstances; this is a perfect opportunity for him to learn how to deal with them.