Is a college education beneficial or just selective?

amother

Denim

Thu, Sep 10 2020, 2:22 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Maybe the people who are able to fund and complete a college education are just the same people who had all the factors for success in the first place.

?
Nobody funded my college education. I didn't get scholarships or grants. Took out loans. Got a job. Finally finished paying off when I turned 40. It's like paying rent or a mortgage or a monthly car payment. Just a cost of life.

watergirl

Thu, Sep 10 2020, 2:29 pm

Anyone who wants to go to college can go. Everyone has their reasons why they "can't" but generally speaking, where there is a will, there is a way. And it is THAT mind-set that is attractive to a prospective employer.

As for funding, I just did a quick google of my state and found that for state residents, one academic year is $6,971 and $19,785 for out-of-state residents. Every state offers similar rates for residents. A four-year college is far cheaper per year than most Yeshiva tuitions! Most people who need additional financial assistance can apply for FAFSA. A 2-year college is even less, and you can get the pre-recs out of the way there for a far lower cost than at a 4-year school.

mha3484

Thu, Sep 10 2020, 2:29 pm

I work with nurses all day. 85% of the ones I work with got their associates at a city college and then once they were working they did a Bachelors in the evening. Some started even lower with a one year certificate program. These men and women live in low income areas. They were motivated to find a good career and looked for a way to fund it. Very few job candidates that I encounter went to expensive private colleges majoring in subjects that dont get you employed. Most people can get grants and scholarships to go to their local city college/community college.

professor

Thu, Sep 10 2020, 2:34 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Maybe the people who are able to fund and complete a college education are just the same people who had all the factors for success in the first place.

It's beneficial if you want a job that actually pays. But if you just like to learn for fun, then it's also selective.

What do you mean fund and complete?

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Sep 10 2020, 2:38 pm

Except for odd part-time or temporary jobs here and there, any job I've had has required a college degree. there was never any question of my not attending college, but I chose my major based on something I was good at that I believed would lead to a job more readily than the something else that I was equally good at but much less likely to lead to a job in that field.

There were no quick-BA-based-on-seminary-credits programs in my day. At most you might wangle a few independent study credits in Jewish studies if you wrote a paper based on what you learned in sem, and if you majored in something with a lot of requirements, it wasn't even worth the bother because you could well end up with excess credits for which you had to pay extra.

amother

Sienna

Thu, Sep 10 2020, 2:38 pm

ChanieMommy wrote:

I suppose it serves both aims. It imparts knowledge and selects at the exam...

My College taught me exactly to do what I do now. It was very much to the point. The college education is really the basis ffor what I do every day...

I am in a rather "young" profession, where there used to be lots of people who just started working, without proper training a generation before me.

In general, they were less performant, than the later generation, but also, they report it was very hard to be just to be thrown in.

while I was very impatient to start working when I was still a student, I understand now that I really needed the preparation I got in college, and it's good to learn properly first and start working once you know what you do... Of course, there is still enough to learn, because the "real" work out there is never exactly what you learned at school, so you also need about 10 years professional experience to be on top, to really know what you are doing...

Nowadays, that my profession is a bit older, people would not recruit those self-taught amateurs any more. Because college does preselect the talents from the non-talents (in the case of my profession), but it also teaches how to do it...
There is a certain percentage of college-graduates that won't make it on the market, despite their degree... that's more or less those who were not selected out, who just barely passed the exams...

Are you in computers?

zaq

Thu, Sep 10 2020, 3:02 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Maybe the people who are able to fund and complete a college education are just the same people who had all the factors for success in the first place.

You mean, like ...intelligence, vision, discipline, motivation, perseverance, determination, responsibility, a strong work ethic and so on? By which I don't mean to imply that all college students have these, nor do I mean to imply that anyone who doesn't go to college lacks those traits. Those traits are necessary to succeed at anything.

Frumme

Thu, Sep 10 2020, 3:06 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Maybe the people who are able to fund and complete a college education are just the same people who had all the factors for success in the first place.

I disagree. I went to a public high school where if you had the motivation and good grades to do so, you could take college classes on the high school campus (not AP, actual for-credit college classes) for free. And even more so, if you had a way to get to the college campus, you could take all of your senior year courses at the college itself (or all online college classes). For free. And the county paid for all lab fees, computer fees, and books.

Every year, a few students of my 2000-student public school alma mater graduate with an AA, at little to no cost to them. I myself did not graduate with an AA, but when I left HS, I was able to complete my BA in 2 1/2 years. I still had to take out loans and I'm still paying them off, but I have half of the loans my peers do because I was proactive as a teenager.

amother

Black

Thu, Sep 10 2020, 3:08 pm

In the US, we live in a capitalist system. Some people will own companies, but most won't.

The vast majority of people will earn a living by being compensated for their labor one way or another. Your labor can be cheap or expensive. If your labor is cheap, then life can be very difficult. Higher education is not the only way to make your labor more expensive, but it is a relatively reliable and comfortable way of doing so, if you are strategic about it.

There are jobs with relatively high compensation rates that don't require higher education, but they are not necessarily easy to obtain or to perform. Many are relatively dangerous, physically taxing, inconveniently located, and/or difficult to make compatible with frum life.

I don't think everyone needs to go to college, but everyone should think realistically about how they will earn a living, given the realities of the market.

ora_43

Thu, Sep 10 2020, 3:31 pm

For me, it was a rubber stamp. Now I have a degree sitting around somewhere confirming that I'm capable of obtaining (largely worthless) knowledge. This allows people to feel comfortable hiring me. Even though 99% of jobs are going to use the skills I needed to survive the program, not the knowledge I actually learned.

But that's also on me and my choice of degrees. If I'd learned accounting or engineering or anything else practical, I'm sure I'd use a lot more of it on a daily basis.

amother

Vermilion

Thu, Sep 10 2020, 3:49 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Maybe the people who are able to fund and complete a college education are just the same people who had all the factors for success in the first place.

Both are true. If your parents can afford to pay for college, you probably inherited intelligence and a whole value system that primes you for success. But plenty of first generation college students, and/or students who paid their own tuition, have these same strengths and values. They ought to be encouraged.

You can major in philosophy, continue on to an Ivy League law school and make seven figures. (I know someone like this.) You can also get a philosophy degree and learn how to think critically and write well. These skills can take you far.

I taught college for a few years. I can say with certainty that learning gemara is not a substitute for a liberal arts education.

watergirl

Thu, Sep 10 2020, 3:59 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Yes, but not everyone can graduate.

Of course they can. Where there is a will there is a way. That doesn’t mean it will be easy, if it is possible. (Eta - a weaker student may not be able to keep up with the accelerated or heimish programs. A standard 4-year program is doable for everyone)

Ps I started college at 18. Took a break at 20. Went back at 33 with 3 kids and a full time job. Graduated at 35. I have a diagnossed Learning disability, dyslexia, and I have had an IEP just about my entire school career until 18. I had everything stacked against me.

By the way, just because I feel that everybody can go to college does not mean that everybody should. I do me and you do you.

Last edited by watergirl on Thu, Sep 10 2020, 4:11 pm; edited 1 time in total