Upgrading covering

lilies

Mon, Sep 14 2020, 2:52 pm

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

Just to clarify I never said women shouldn't listen to their Rav. But a woman doesnt necessarily need to ask a Rav about taking a step in modesty (unless there are other connected issues like the husband is not on board etc...).
Snip

With controversial topics it would be wise to check in with a Rav before doing things. What may seem to be modest, may not always be the correct course of action. If one is so sure of the upgrade in modesty in any area, there should not be an issue in reaching out to a Rav.

Think black shawls.

amother

Yellow

Mon, Sep 14 2020, 3:16 pm

Im not going to get in to the Rebbes view (im not Chabad, im very litvish)
But the parts that I find that are constantly glossed over is why the Rebbe said a wig is preferred. The concern was that at that time women might slip off the tichel from embarrassment which they wouldnt do with a sheitel. He also was concerned that a tichel might show hair and its less likely in a wig.
The Rebbe did write:

It is possible that she will say that she will wear a kerchief properly. If she does so, then surely it is well. But experience has shown that this is not the case.

Clearly if a woman wears a tichel that covers all the hair its good. A sheitel isnt better than that (ironically there are poskim that held that a wig is like all the hair is showing because thats what it looks like)
My friends that switched to tichels for tznius reasons cover every hair. And the reality is hair could totally stick out of wig it would just be less noticeable and blend in. Also im not promoting showing hair but halachically the random hairs that could stick out are not forbidden.
Rav Elyashiv actually wrote a teshuva on it.
Again its best to cover all hair.
But many feel the few hairs that might escape (when a woman does her best to cover properly with a tichel) does not equal the immodesty of a wig.
Also today women who wear tichels are not going to just take them off when they feel like it. Many women than werent covering their hair at all- it was a different time period.

amother

Yellow

Mon, Sep 14 2020, 3:34 pm

Bingo.
You explained exactly why some women think they need to ask a Rav about this upgrade even if they are sure about it.
Because of all the negative feedback from some People in the litvish world calling it controversial, not necessary, not appropriate- comparing it to black shawls etc... all coming from incorrect social norms and lack of education on this topic resulting in real prejudice towards tichels. Thats why women feel they need to ask about upgrading and thats why the info about the history the Gedolim etc are so important to know.

amother

Yellow

Mon, Sep 14 2020, 3:59 pm

Wearing a tichel is in no way controversial and should never be controversial and ironically the halachic controversy was always about wearing wigs (and these were on wiggy ones).
Many litvish yeshivish circles made it controversial based on wrong social norms. Thats why women ask and get confused about the topic. To many women its logical and clear that a tichel is the ideal and a big upgrade but than they hear all the negative comments about it not being the litvish mesorah and how its off and they get nervous.
Its really sad that frum womem have to deal with this prejuduce when they are doing such a great mitzvah (as this recent kol korei and many other letters made clear).

Ruchel

Mon, Sep 14 2020, 4:06 pm

>Gmara speaks of wig... "spanish wigs", "shilte giborim 500 yrs ago" a sefardi... siiiiiigh. I'm not litvish either or don't assimile as such. But the more you get all attacky the more I look down on the tichel crowd
It's logical and clear that my SMILE doing a mitzva is worth more than your sour.

Joshua Boaz ben Simon Baruch (died 1557), also known as the Shiltei Giborim after a work he authored, was a prominent Talmudist who lived at Sabbioneta, and later at Savigliano. He was a descendant of an old Judæo-Spanish family, and probably settled in Italy after the banishment of the Jews from Spain.

When he was twenty-three years old, he began to publish useful works on the Talmud, in which he displayed vast erudition.

Rulings
Among his rulings in Jewish Law is the consent for women to wear wigs. He argued that hairs which are not attached to the head are not subject to the prohibitions regarding modesty which requires the covering of a woman's hair. He claimed that the woman's duty to make herself attractive to her husband outweighed other objections. His ruling was later included in the great code of Jewish Law known as the Shulchan Aruch.[1]

So I'm nolt into the husband side, but I like the rest

lilies

Mon, Sep 14 2020, 4:20 pm

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

Nope, a controversial issue is something that has two opposing opinions. Which this clearly does.
As do many, many, other things.
What I find sad is that you believe that because you 'know' something to be true, it shouldn't be posed to a Rav for guidance. What exactly are you afraid of? Why discourage others from doing so?
I'm wondering if you apply this across the board, like some people do (and there may not be anything wrong with doing that if that's how you were taught to do, as long as it applies all over) or you only apply this to things you 'know' to be true.

amother

Red

Mon, Sep 14 2020, 6:05 pm

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

Yellow, this is where I think you're going wrong. I'm not Chabad but it must be very offensive to Lubavitcher ladies when someone who isn't gets up and says she did the research and they don't really understand what their rebbe said.

Again, I agree with all your points about tichels, and hope to switch one day, but you're still rubbing me the wrong way.

I'm pointing this out because you may not realize what's bothering people about your posts. It's not about your view of shaitels and tichels. It's that you are telling people who come from a community that differs than your view that they are wrong and you know better than them about their community. I'm not saying that a Chabad psak should inform your actions, but it should certainly inform a Lubavitcher lady's actions. Telling her that you know better what HER rebbe said, wrote, and meant, is offensive.

amother

Yellow

Mon, Sep 14 2020, 6:58 pm

Thats not why people are bothered my posts- they were bothered already by my general statement in the beginning that a tichel is an upgrade in the Litvish world.
Im not posting to please people and to make everyone happy with what I write. The Gedolim and sefarim and articles I posted were meant for across the board - jews everywhere. Not just jews in israel, or some litvish women, or different sects.
Their comments werent only for some Jewish women - they said them for everyone.
Rav Elyashiv ztl meant what he said for everyone- not just women in israel. He said many other strong words about wigs which I didnt quote here.
Really women could just take the info or leave it. I would understand if a personal opinion would offend people. But these comments were not personal opinions, thats why I stressed the source part.
Judiasm doesnt mean being careful to not step on peoples toes so as not to offend them if it means not stating true sourced info.
There are special women that hear emes and admit thats the emes but that they are not there yet. Than there are those women who hear the emes but dont like it because they are not doing it and than they put down those that said it or put down women who are doing it. And they get offended by words of Gedolim. This is not personal.

Everyone is able to post what they read and heard on the subject. Yet there still hasnt been anything posted from a litvish Gadol stating that a sheitel is ideal and the mesorah. No written source. Hearing it from a Rav personally doesnt mean he meant it for the klal or that he even meant it the way the person heard it. Its not proof of any mesorah. Sorry.
How is it ok if I told women on this thread- oh I personally spoke to Rav Chaim Kanievsky shlita and he told me that tichels are the true mesorah for Litvish women (I never had that conversation but his Rebbetzin did wear a big tichel over her sheitel). Why in the world should women believe me if its not printed in a sefer or recorded etc...
It could be true and it could be not true. Its not a credible source.
And I wouldn't even expect women to believe it. I learned all this info from Rabbanim and Rebbetzins who gave it over with all the sources. They gave books and sefarim and articles. Not so and so said this to me so therefore this is the mesorah of the litvish world.
Why do I need to accommodate other views if all the sources point otherwise- to placate people and not offend? Thats dishonest and just wrong.

naturalmom5

Mon, Sep 14 2020, 7:56 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

https://www.chabad.org/multimedia/video_cdo/aid/2354728/jewish/The-Special-Dignity-of-the-Jewish-Woman.htm

I strongly advise watching this video
And I really would appreciate if someone could explain why ladies like Shaindy Jacobson and numerous other Chabad speakers are so warm and heartfelt
Whereas, the vibe on this thread particularly with posters like yellow is Drink the cod liver oil because thats the mesora period end of story...

cbsp

Mon, Sep 14 2020, 8:04 pm

Amither yellow, I wanted to point out that when the whole sheitel hair from India controversial first hit in '04(?) the Lakewood Cheder closed for the afternoon sessions rather than have the Morahs come teach in tichels.

Seems that if the Rabbonim held that tichels were superior this would have been an ideal time to push for that standard - especially when women were burning their potentially a"z sheitels!

I happen to be a mostly tichel wearer so I truly have no skin in this argument (I think I wear a sheitel less than a handful of times a year). I will say that when I asked my litvish Rov if I should just formally switch he was truly puzzled that I would think it would be an upgrade. The Rov said that R' Yaakov Kaminetsky ztl was very much in favor of sheitels for women.

(amother yellow, the overwhelming majority of poskim you quote are from Eretz Yisroel. Yidden in America follow American Gedolim for actual piskei halacha - and the Rabbonim in EY will confirm that is the proper derech when it comes to what community standards should be)

amother

Yellow

Mon, Sep 14 2020, 8:54 pm

Actually women did switch from their wigs to tichels because of the indian hair scandal.
I know quite a few.
Again hearing about what a Rav said to one person is not a psak for the klal- we dont know the context, what, why etc...
The Rabbanim in israel were not just stating what they said about the wigs for people in Israel. The book The Unique Princess by Rebbetzin Tehilla Abramov which states Rav Elyashivs opinion about the sheitels and tichels is in english (and many other languages). Its meant for American audiences and all countries and has the Ravs haskama among other great Rabbanim and a section written by Rav Yitzchok Zilberstein shlita.
In English it says in chapter 10:
"The halachic opinions that permit the wearing of wigs were talking about wigs that were short, unnatural looking and "wiggy". Such wigs were in use a century ago, explains Maran HaGaon Rav Yosef Sholom Elyashiv ztl. They were short and stiff and the hairs did not move from their place. Therefore they were neither provocative nor alluring."
Further on it says:
"The posek hador, our generations great halachic authority, Maran Rav Yosef Sholom Elyashiv has clearly stated that in his opinion it is preferable for a woman to cover her hair with a kerchief rather than a wig. He constantly expresses his concern about the use of wigs that are not modest- a practice which, he says, has made inroads even into the families of pious men and roshei yeshivah."
This was the Ravs halachic opinion for everyone- not just those in israel.
The recent kol korei by Rav Gans is also meant for everyone not just israel.

Going back- many Gedolim like the Divrei Chaim, the Chasam Sofer, the Vilna Gaon etc...wrote about the wigs for everyone.

amother

Yellow

Mon, Sep 14 2020, 9:20 pm

So this paragraph is very strong but its also sourced from the book The Unique Princess, I remember first reading it and being shocked.
(Rav Ezriel Auerbach shlita did give his haskama on the book and Rebbetzin Abramovs organization Jewish Marriage Education (JME) was established under the encouragement and guidance of Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach ztl and Rav Elyashiv ztl):

"Maran Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach ztl expressed the same concern. As he once put it to Rav Dan Segal shlita, "They cover their hair, and then make every effort to make it look uncovered. Therefore in ny opinion this is a loathsome thing. But who can we talk to? " He also said that when Mashiach comes the first thing he'll do is abolish the use of wigs (as quoted by his son in law shlita). Many halachic authorities and Torah scholars in our time agree with this approach."

Yes, theres a heter for a wig, but according to many great Gedolim its for a pretty wiggy wig. But how could todays sheitels be in any way more ideal than a cloth head covering?? Its a heter not an ideal. When Mashiach comes the first thing hes going to do is abolish the use of wigs! Why would that happen if wigs are the ideal and our true mesorah?
Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach ztl was huge. Im not making up his words. Nothing im writing is a personal piece or a private conversation I had.

amother

Coral

Mon, Sep 14 2020, 9:42 pm

Here we go again

Litvish here. My great grandmothers wore shaitels in the 1800's

The wiggy wig look. If you look at the hairstyles in the 1950's that was the so called wiggy look, very teased and sprayed hair as they did not have blow dryers and had their hair done at the beauty parlor once a week. Why do you think showercaps were so popular? I remember in the 70's the older ladies of the general population walking around with their hair in curlers with a kerchief over it and when they finished styling their hair looked very wiggy.

Shaitles reflect the styles of the time.

I live in Lakewood and it is considered better to wear a shaitel when going out and about then a tichel by the majority. The letters from the school ask the mother to only come in shaitels when they drop by.

If a hair style is not tznius it doesn't matter if the style is on a single girls head or the style is on a shaitel. In other words is a style tzniusdig or not, it has nothing to do whether it is a shaitel or hair.

Yellow, the frustration that I have is you are claiming things that I and others who have experienced is not true. I would call it gaslighting.

No one has issue with you choosing your derech but do not denigrate the Mesorah that I and others were raised with. For the record when I ask my Rav a shailah I do not ask him for his sources. I picked him to be my Rav for a reason.

amother

Yellow

Mon, Sep 14 2020, 10:07 pm

A sheitel is not meant to be another tznius hair style thats in fashion- why bother covering your hair?
Its supposed to be a visible head covering that covers the erva underneath it- its supposed to look like a head covering. Hashem didnt command us to get married and than wear a tznius hairstyle (everyone could just cut their hair after marriage if thats the case- not cover it) We were commanded to cover our hair as married woman because its erva- can cause attraction to men. Thats why Rav Elyashiv called todays wigs erva- they look just like the erva they are supposed to be covering! Not like actual head coverings.
Rav Yaakov Hoffman really addresses the issue very well in his article "Reconsidering the sheitel"- why the American Lithuanian crowd is so attached to the wig (from social norms etc...)

lilies

Mon, Sep 14 2020, 10:12 pm

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

Are you responding to a specific post or are you just trying to put as much info regarding this topic and your (and your sources) opinions out there?