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-> Judaism
shabbatiscoming
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Mon, Sep 14 2020, 3:04 pm
A spin off of the other thread about shul this yomim noraim.
Someone mentioned it is not halachically allowed to take a torah out of a shul.
SO I was asked to make that a spin off.
Can anyone please explain what the issue could be?
In Israel there are always hakafot outside the shuls and people dance up and down the streets with the torahs.
What could the issue be?
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amother
Lime
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Mon, Sep 14 2020, 3:08 pm
Never heard this before. Always have hakafos outside. Plus people take Torah from Shul to use in minyan at hotel or something like that. That's also taking out of the Shul.
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amother
Plum
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Mon, Sep 14 2020, 3:12 pm
It's not respectful to just shlep around a Sefer Torah. Dancing with it on simchas Torah doesn't fall into that category.
There's a strong minhag not to move a Sefer Torah out of shul if it's going to be read fewer than 3 times. In this view, better to forgo laining than to disrespect a Sefer Torah.
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Ruchel
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Mon, Sep 14 2020, 3:20 pm
people have to go to oot places with torahs etc - I lived in such a place, it was there but moved for kippur in a bigger room
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DrMom
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Mon, Sep 14 2020, 3:43 pm
Never heard of this.
If a congregant is sitting shiva, our shul lends a sefer Torah to the shiva house.
Simchat Torah - outdoor hakafot are common
The Kotel - plenty of outdoor sfrei Torah!
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Ruchel
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Mon, Sep 14 2020, 3:58 pm
do all people with minyan at shiva have a sefer Torah ? I've seen mostly non having minyan, but did saw some
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shabbatiscoming
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Mon, Sep 14 2020, 4:00 pm
OK, I just asked. There is literally no issue taking a torah out of a shul. It just needs to be covered, either in its cover or in a talit or something like that. Thats all.
Lets try not to make issues in halacha where there are none.
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Rappel
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Mon, Sep 14 2020, 4:03 pm
amother [ Plum ] wrote: | It's not respectful to just shlep around a Sefer Torah. Dancing with it on simchas Torah doesn't fall into that category.
There's a strong minhag not to move a Sefer Torah out of shul if it's going to be read fewer than 3 times. In this view, better to forgo laining than to disrespect a Sefer Torah. |
I've heard of this, but I don't know the parameters. Do you possibly have a source?
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FranticFrummie
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Mon, Sep 14 2020, 4:04 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote: | OK, I just asked. There is literally no issue taking a torah out of a shul. It just needs to be covered, either in its cover or in a talit or something like that. Thats all.
Lets try not to make issues in halacha where there are none. |
Most shuls have a portable aron on wheels, so that they can take the Torah out with a double covering. I don't know if that is halacha, or just showing extra respect. Either way, I think it's a good solution.
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amother
Khaki
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Mon, Sep 14 2020, 4:07 pm
During the riots, I mean "peaceful protests" in Los Angeles that smashed up stores all over town, burned police cars, massive looting, graffitied over BYLA, stores and many shuls.... We removed the Sifrei Torahs from our shul to a secret location. We were worried about the Torahs' safety. They covered it and brought it to someone's home as residential streets were mostly spared.
You can bring Sifrei Torah elsewhere.
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Ruchel
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Mon, Sep 14 2020, 4:09 pm
FranticFrummie wrote: | Most shuls have a portable aron on wheels, so that they can take the Torah out with a double covering. I don't know if that is halacha, or just showing extra respect. Either way, I think it's a good solution. |
My dh doesn't think he has seen this and he has traveled to many kehulos - he saw it maybe once. He says it's no biddy to do double. at his school there were twho shuls... it was moved...
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shabbatiscoming
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Mon, Sep 14 2020, 4:10 pm
amother [ Plum ] wrote: | It's not respectful to just shlep around a Sefer Torah. Dancing with it on simchas Torah doesn't fall into that category.
There's a strong minhag not to move a Sefer Torah out of shul if it's going to be read fewer than 3 times. In this view, better to forgo laining than to disrespect a Sefer Torah. | So do you have a source for this? I asked and was told there is nothing wrong with removing a torah from a shul. It just has to be covered.
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lilies
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Mon, Sep 14 2020, 4:10 pm
amother [ Khaki ] wrote: | During the riots, I mean "peaceful protests" in Los Angeles that smashed up stores all over town, burned police cars, massive looting, graffitied over BYLA, stores and many shuls.... We removed the Sifrei Torahs from our shul to a secret location. We were worried about the Torahs' safety. They covered it and brought it to someone's home as residential streets were mostly spared.
You can bring Sifrei Torah elsewhere. |
Well, this is different.
You are taking the Sefer Torah out to protect it.
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shabbatiscoming
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Mon, Sep 14 2020, 4:11 pm
FranticFrummie wrote: | Most shuls have a portable aron on wheels, so that they can take the Torah out with a double covering. I don't know if that is halacha, or just showing extra respect. Either way, I think it's a good solution. | Interesting. Ive davened in shuls in 3 continents and have never seen such a thing before
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amother
Plum
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Mon, Sep 14 2020, 4:16 pm
Rappel wrote: | I've heard of this, but I don't know the parameters. Do you possibly have a source? |
Aruch Hashulchan, Orach Chaim 135:32,
ועוד אמרו דזהו רק כשמביאים התורה מבית הכנסת בשעת הקריאה, ואחר כך מחזירין אותה לבית הכנסת. אבל אם מביאים אותה מקודם ומניחין אותה בארון או בתיבה, שיש לה מקום מיוחד על איזה זמן – לית לן בה. והמנהג לדקדק שיקראו בה שלוש פעמים, דזה מקרי כקביעות, ואין בזיון במה שטלטלוה מבית הכנסת. אבל בפחות משלוש פעמים טלטלוה לצורך עראי, ויש בזיון אף אם הביאוה מקודם. ומכל מה שנתבאר מבואר דלא יפה עושים רבים מהמון העם בראש השנה
ויום הכיפורים ושמחת תורה, שקודם הקריאה נוטלין ספר תורה מהבית הכנסת לקרוא במקום אחר, ואחר הקריאה מחזירין אותה לבית הכנסת. וכוונתם כדי לעלות לתורה בימים המקודשים האלה, אבל יצא שכרם בהפסידם לעבור עבירה בימים המקודשים ולא לחוש לכבוד התורה. ולכן ראוי למחות בהם, ולגזור שלא יעשו כן. והשומע תבוא עליו ברכת טוב.
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FranticFrummie
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Mon, Sep 14 2020, 4:17 pm
Ruchel wrote: | My dh doesn't think he has seen this and he has traveled to many kehulos - he saw it maybe once. He says it's no biddy to do double. at his school there were twho shuls... it was moved... |
Up until now it's been extremely rare that it's done, so I am not surprised that your DH hasn't seen it happen. I've seen portable aronot in a side store room at shul, where they are kept in case someone needs it for a shiva minyan or other use outside of shul.
When a friend of mine's MIL passed away, she was complaining that the aron took up so much space in her living room.
Like I said, it's most likely not halacha, it's just something shuls like to provide.
Now that many minyans are holding services outside, I'm seeing more of these little aronot around.
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amother
Babypink
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Mon, Sep 14 2020, 4:24 pm
There's an issue using a sefer torah outside, you can't open a sefer torah outside without something covering it. Dancing with sifrai torah outside is not an issue. Then there's an issue with moving a sefer torah from it's permanent place. It needs to be used a certain amount of times (bikevuous) for this to be allowed. A sefer torah may not be removed from it's permanent place for temporary use.
There's alot discussion about this in Masechtes Yoma, Masechtes Sotah, and Mishna Berura.
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DrMom
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Mon, Sep 14 2020, 4:33 pm
FranticFrummie wrote: | Most shuls have a portable aron on wheels, so that they can take the Torah out with a double covering. I don't know if that is halacha, or just showing extra respect. Either way, I think it's a good solution. |
When we bring a ST to a shiva house, it comes in a little aron. No idea if it has wheels. I assumed that was so that it would have convenient storage and accessibility at the shiva house, and to protect it during transport.
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Elfrida
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Mon, Sep 14 2020, 4:40 pm
When we only had mirpesset minyanim I noticed one man holding the Sefer Torah right through the Amida and chazrat hashatz. Shabbos afternoon, so not the longest davening, but still fairly heavy. I suppose they had nowhere suitable to put it down outside, but I wondered if they had some kind of Aron for it inside, or whether it would be returned to shul after the tefilla.
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