Underpaid at camp | Imamother

amother

Orange

Thu, Sep 17 2020, 10:17 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Yes, $3000 with youth corp. The other 3 friends working same job with her this year weren't paid yet. While others were applying for unemployment, I said " but you're working, you can't do that - we don't do shtick in this family!" I guess I feel duped 2x. Obviously, Noone expected to get paid $3,000 without youth corp this year, but a fair pay? Minimum wage? Why not?

I don't think youth corp ran this year. The youth corp money doesn't come out of the camps pocket so it shouldn't really be part of the equation when figuring out how much camps should pay.

amother

Mistyrose

Thu, Sep 17 2020, 10:22 am

watergirl wrote:

I am making an assumption here and I could be wrong. BUT if the camp was not legal and taxes were not paid, they can pay her whatever they want. Minimum wage only applies legally when the job is on the books and/or at a legal workplace.

That is a common misconception. I doubt that is true, but I'll defer to someone with specific knowledge of the state in question.

lamplighter

Thu, Sep 17 2020, 10:23 am

The point that is being ignored by the OP but crucial to this discussion is: What was she told she was going to get paid??????

If she was told a higher number then yes there's room for anger and action.
If she was not told a number but thought she was getting more, lesson learned.

Chayalle

Thu, Sep 17 2020, 10:27 am

amother [ Orange ] wrote:

I don't think youth corp ran this year. The youth corp money doesn't come out of the camps pocket so it shouldn't really be part of the equation when figuring out how much camps should pay.

And not everyone is eligible for youth corp, so if you are not part of the program, you don't get that money.

amother

Wheat

Thu, Sep 17 2020, 10:28 am

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

Room and board come off the minimum wage.
Many sleepover camps pay nothing (like I said my sons camp doesn’t pay sleepover camp staff anything and they have a waiting list).
You work in sleepover camp for the experience and to have fun with friends. Not to make big money. If you want good money you take an office job. (I spent years working in sleepover camps and got paid pennies or nothing ). My mother has also worked in camps with no kids as campers and is paid very little. It’s just how camps work.

That is terrible and what’s even worse is that people are okay with it.

watergirl

Thu, Sep 17 2020, 10:28 am

amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:

That is a common misconception. I doubt that is true, but I'll defer to someone with specific knowledge of the state in question.

First - There is a different min wage for youth (which is defined as under 20). $4.25/hour for the first consecutive 90 days. Babysitters are exempt from this. A camp counsellor in an unlicensed camp may be considered a babysitter at best. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/w.....youth

amother

Thu, Sep 17 2020, 10:30 am

watergirl wrote:

Because the standard pay, at least where I live, is much less actually. Camp jobs do not pay a lot. Not even for an adult counselor. I know this because I was both. I am not sure why you are jumping from what you think is low pay to all of a sudden paying to work. Hyperbole does not help here.

And you are not answering the question everyone asked - was she told what they pay would be before camp? You said there was no contract. But was there a verbal statement made?

No, they didn't want to discuss the pay. There was no clear answer. I had another child working in a different camp and their experience was very, very different - fair treatment in all aspects, pay included.
I'm very sad. This wasn't a fun job with friends - the kid needed the money. I guess experience is a great benefit. I just hate for my kid to turn bitter and sarcastic as myself, before time

Chayalle

Thu, Sep 17 2020, 10:32 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Why is it a lot for a teen? Are they supposed to pay for the privilege of working? I'm just not understanding the logic? I obviously changed details (not the $ amount she received). This was a physically hard job. She worked during the week and helped out on shabbos, without expecting to get paid, obviously. But she did put in her 120% and was expecting to be compensated fairly. Btw, the camp costed 2 arms and legs this year...

My family's experience with sleepover camps is that yeah, you pretty much pay for the privilege of being there. If you are lucky, you come away with some tips. That's why my girls stopped going to camp at a certain point in high school, as did my sisters....they realized they wanted to start earning some serious $$$, not the tips that barely cover the camp fee (and there was no Youth Corp where we lived.)

And I just want to comment that no, it's never obvious that you changed details until you say so. And if you changed details, we obviously are not getting the full picture and can't really comment much. We still don't know if there was any sort of payment agreement that the camp reneged on.

(and the camp costing an arm and 2 legs this year seems to be because of increased COVID costs, so that wouldn't be passed on to staff....)

amother

Orange

Thu, Sep 17 2020, 10:33 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Well, if your child see's how you're reacting, you can't expect her to react differently. Take this as a lesson for life to always discuss and write down pay before taking a job. And if she does go out to work and things don't go her way, she needs to learn to accept it gracefully and discuss it in a mature manner. Anger, bitterness, and sarcasm won't get her far in life.

Chayalle

Thu, Sep 17 2020, 10:33 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

OK, I see I posted while you were answering.

OP, NEVER let your child take a job with no discussion of pay.

Lesson learned (hopefully).

amother

Thu, Sep 17 2020, 10:33 am

amother [ Wheat ] wrote:

That is terrible and what’s even worse is that people are okay with it.

I have a few kids - the pay in girls day camps is prorated per age - at the same job! But at least the younger ones are doing it for fun. A 19 year old not so much

amother

Mistyrose

Thu, Sep 17 2020, 10:34 am

watergirl wrote:

These are completely different points. There are all sorts of exceptions to wage laws. But I am not aware of one that says "If you're off the books, pay whatever you want," as you suggested in the post I was responding to.

Separately from that, you are posting a link to federal wage requirements. Most states have additional, stricter requirements.

The point is, OP should find out what her daughter's legal entitlement is. Even if they would never sue, that information could be helpful leverage if they want to negotiate with the camp.

amother

Magenta

Thu, Sep 17 2020, 10:35 am

Camps definitely take advantage of the girls. My 17 y.o. daughter worked as a counselor at a camp this summer, and all she received was $125- (for all 4 weeks)!!! She was not expecting a lot, and we paid for her to go - but this was less than even she expected, and she was pretty upset about it. This was after she worked very hard and did a great job. At first, she wanted me to call the camp (as I know someone in the administration) but upon reflection, she decided that she doesn’t want a reputation as a complainer, so she asked me to let it go. Still not sure if I did the right thing. . .

FWIW - SYEP was a virtual learning experience this summer, and she did participate in that, so she made $1,000 during the second half (for doing much less work).

amother

Slategray

Thu, Sep 17 2020, 10:37 am

amother [ Wheat ] wrote:

That is terrible and what’s even worse is that people are okay with it.

It’s because they want to go. Nobody is forcing them. Married staff goes to camp bec they like it. Not to make $$ (depending on job - head counselors, cooks make $$). A 19 yr old can choose to be an office secretary, mother’s helper, local life guard or many other jobs that pay much better. There aren’t many 19 year olds wanting to go to camp for this reason. The only reason you choose to go to camp is to get away with friends. I’m sorry she didn’t know that in advance.

watergirl

Thu, Sep 17 2020, 10:41 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Then sad lesson learned. She is 19 and old enough to think for herself at this point. I would never allow my younger child to take a job without knowing the pay. At 19, this was on her to ask what they pay would be. Her lesson learned from this is more valuable than any higher paycheck would have been. Despite what happened to your other kids experience, never EVER take a job and work the job without knowing the pay rate and pay date.

I am sorry for your daughter, I know she is disappointed.

If it helps her feel better, can you remind her that her pay was not determined by the camp. It was determined by HKBH who decides what we ALL will be making? And He will be making the same decisions this Shabbos? The camp was just His shaliach. He orchestrated this. Maybe for her and you to learn this lesson? She received her predestined money for the year no matter who or where it came from.

amother

Thu, Sep 17 2020, 10:45 am

watergirl wrote:

And for what its worth, I would love to see the same arguments made when someone posts asking what a newly out of kollel married man with 4 kids but no experience can expect to be paid; the inevitable argument is one side feels you get paid for your experience and the other side feels by virtue of being a heimish married man, you earn more than the single, older women with more experience.

A teen is young and as such, has less experience than a 30 year old who has been working. If a 30 year old who has the same resume as the teen worked at this camp then YES I would agree they should get the same pay.

You wouldn't hear this argument from me. Experience is experience. Fair is fair. Taking advantage of someone's naivete is not nice. The camp sent the kids from one person to the next, never giving a clear answer about anything. We only knew this camp from camper perspective before - now we're smarter, yeah

amother

Thu, Sep 17 2020, 10:48 am

watergirl wrote:

Yes, thank you. It's a very humbling experience somehow

amother

Thu, Sep 17 2020, 10:50 am

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

The job she had was the one that is known to be as one of the better paying jobs, actually.

SixOfWands

Thu, Sep 17 2020, 10:50 am

Camps and other seasonal amusement and recreational employers are generally exempt from federal minimum wage laws. That’s why tips are so important.

Unfortunately, based on my kids, $125 a week is pretty normal for camps. Sorry.

As a parent, you can help her realize her mistake (not asking in advance, not having a contract) and what she can do (call, say she reasonably anticipated that her pay would be equal to last summer), but I doubt it’s going to help.

Shana tova.

watergirl

Thu, Sep 17 2020, 10:53 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Yes, thank you. It's a very humbling experience somehow

I TOTALLY hear that! I try to look at these things like this: Rosh Hashanah is coming so soon! It's not a coincidence that Hashem arraigned it that she should just NOW get her check. Or that you were drawn to post about this here. All of us reading this now have something to learn. And YES! It is SO humbling for me when I have a reminder like this. I also have been the one to get upset about pay or whatever and then it hits me in the face who really decided what.

Literally it is at the final cut off now of 5780. It is not a coincidence that I just got 3 text messages OUT OF THE BLUE (literally as I was typing this I stopped because I got a text) from people wanting to buy a $10 item I sell. I am not even kidding. Apparently I am supposed to get another $30 this year. Right down to the wire.