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If so many people dislike long davening - why do we do it?
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, Sep 21 2020, 8:35 am
All around me, people moan and krechz about the long davening on yamim noraim..

So why do we do it?

If people don't find it meaningful, why undergo this torture?

What do you find meaningful in prayers for Yamim Noraim, how would you do it if you could chose?
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SuperWify




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Sep 21 2020, 8:38 am
Find a shorter minyan.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Sep 21 2020, 8:39 am
I have a really hard time with long davening. If I have to stand too long, I get terrible cramps in my lower back and in my legs. If I have to repeat the same verses over and over, they start to lose meaning. It's a real marathon to get through it all.

I much prefer davening "the Breslov way", where you just pour out your heart, in your own words, and talk to Hashem. You can yell, beg, praise, chat, or any other type of communication you want. Sometimes I just cry, and that's a form of davening that is beyond words. I end up feeling much more connected when I daven like this.
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, Sep 21 2020, 8:44 am
SuperWify wrote:
Find a shorter minyan.


My solution was: I took Corona as an excuse and did not go this year...

But then I started thinking: What don't I like about those tefilot - why do I feel obliged to go in a regular year - what is meaningful to me, what isn't? - did I miss something this year?
and: why do so many communities organise a kind of tefila on yamim noraim that no-one really enjoys, but everyone feels compelled to attend?
Is the Rosh hashana davening the punishment for all the year?

Sorry, I don't mean to be cynical, I just wonder how we could find a better adequation between what we need and what we do...
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watergirl




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Sep 21 2020, 8:44 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
I have a really hard time with long davening. If I have to stand too long, I get terrible cramps in my lower back and in my legs. If I have to repeat the same verses over and over, they start to lose meaning. It's a real marathon to get through it all.

I much prefer davening "the Breslov way", where you just pour out your heart, in your own words, and talk to Hashem. You can yell, beg, praise, chat, or any other type of communication you want. Sometimes I just cry, and that's a form of davening that is beyond words. I end up feeling much more connected when I daven like this.

To be fair, and not to give an unrealistic read to those who will take you seriously word for word, Breslovers have a full davening every day and ADD the hisbodedus. It is not in place of formal tefillah. I know you know this but people are out there waiting to pounce! Smile
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SuperWify




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Sep 21 2020, 8:47 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
My solution was: I took Corona as an excuse and did not go this year...

But then I started thinking: What don't I like about those tefilot - why do I feel obliged to go in a regular year - what is meaningful to me, what isn't? - did I miss something this year?
and: why do so many communities organise a kind of tefila on yamim noraim that no-one really enjoys, but everyone feels compelled to attend?
Is the Rosh hashana davening the punishment for all the year?

Sorry, I don't mean to be cynical, I just wonder how we could find a better adequation between what we need and what we do...


Some people do enjoy it. My dh doesn’t and he went somewhere that started at 7:30 and ended at 12:45. Worked for everyone. No need to torture yourself.
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Elfrida




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Sep 21 2020, 8:49 am
There are lot a of shuls that have shorter minyanim, and people who don't like long davening have the option to go to them.

Personally I love the long slow davening. It gives me time to savour and absorb the words dictated by Chazal and use them to reach a place in Avodat Hashem that I would not be able to accomplish on my own. Once (twice) a year I can take my time and pour everything into my tefilot, giving me an aim and a focus for the coming year.


Last edited by Elfrida on Mon, Sep 21 2020, 8:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother




Cyan
 

Post Mon, Sep 21 2020, 8:51 am
A lot of the text in siddurim are additions and not halacha... Someone should just mark what is actually necessary and give people the option.
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amother




OP
 

Post Mon, Sep 21 2020, 8:58 am
amother [ Cyan ] wrote:
A lot of the text in siddurim are additions and not halacha... Someone should just mark what is actually necessary and give people the option.


Also I ask myself whether people enjoy those piyutim as much as they did centuries ago...

Personally, I have a very hard time understanding most piyutim...

Are there people who really understand and savor them in all their peotic glory?

Maybe there were beautiful melodies going with them, but they got lost? and now we have just a skeleton of what it should be?
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keym




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Sep 21 2020, 9:00 am
In my neighborhood, we've had multiple discussions about this, both for Rosh Hashanah and Simchas Torah.
Stereotypically, most of the teenage boys enjoy a long shlepped out davening with singing and kvetching and a long Simchas Torah dancing the whole day.
Yeshivos often offer that the boys can go spend Yom tov there. I, as a mother, want my family home for Yom Tov. Which means compromise. Davening until 2:30 on Rosh Hashanah, as opposed to 4 in yeshiva. Hakafos until 3 as opposed to 5.
That's my perspective on why many families that I know with a variety of ages.
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chanchy123




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Sep 21 2020, 9:09 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Also I ask myself whether people enjoy those piyutim as much as they did centuries ago...

Personally, I have a very hard time understanding most piyutim...

Are there people who really understand and savor them in all their peotic glory?

Maybe there were beautiful melodies going with them, but they got lost? and now we have just a skeleton of what it should be?

In shuls I’ve davened in people sing most of the piyutim and some of the piyutim that don’t have a melody are omitted.
Anyhow, our shul usually guys from vatikin (5:50 here) to 10:30-11:00. This year, we davened outside and shul was over at 9:40 the first day and 10:20 the second day.
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twizzlers1




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Sep 21 2020, 9:10 am
We do not like a long davening and choose to go somewhere where it's quick. But I do know a lot of people that really enjoy the long one and that's what they choose to do.
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amother




Jade
 

Post Mon, Sep 21 2020, 9:11 am
watergirl wrote:
To be fair, and not to give an unrealistic read to those who will take you seriously word for word, Breslovers have a full davening every day and ADD the hisbodedus. It is not in place of formal tefillah. I know you know this but people are out there waiting to pounce! Smile


Right, I was gonna ask (not pounce, lol) if breslov literally don't bring a machzer to shul, don't say unisaneh tokef kedushas hayom, and instead just talk to hashem in their own words.

So is the breslov davening meaningfully shorter, or is it more or less similar?
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amother




White
 

Post Mon, Sep 21 2020, 9:13 am
Go figure. DH always complains that they daven way too fast for it too be spiritual enough....
He doesn’t need long and drawn out, but not rushed either.... there’s a very fine line.
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amother




Cyan
 

Post Mon, Sep 21 2020, 9:39 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Also I ask myself whether people enjoy those piyutim as much as they did centuries ago...

Personally, I have a very hard time understanding most piyutim...

Are there people who really understand and savor them in all their peotic glory?

Maybe there were beautiful melodies going with them, but they got lost? and now we have just a skeleton of what it should be?

Probably singing helps, and some people do enjoy while others just want to do what's necessary, it would be good if we actually knew what was essential and what wasn't, so people could choose instead of skipping altogether (or wishing that)!
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dancingqueen




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Sep 21 2020, 9:52 am
Our shul skipped some piyutim this year due to covid and dh said davening was more pleasant and less dragged out. I wouldn’t mind if some of these covid changes stick around.

BTW, If they daven until 4, I’m assuming they stop and make kiddush at some point? Otherwise it’s basically YK.
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ora_43




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Sep 21 2020, 9:55 am
Even just the 'basic' davening is long on Rosh Hashanah. But that said it's definitely possible to finish at, say, 12:30 instead of 3.

Yom Kippur, though - what's the rush, what else do you have to do? I prefer spending the day davening, to spending the day thinking about how thirsty I am.

(I would think that more people like piyutim now - I mean how many frum Jews were truly fluent in Hebrew 300 years ago, vs today? But I definitely sympathize with people who find them hard.)

Overall - some people like the long davening. Hopefully there's enough of the others to make their own minyan.
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amother




Pumpkin
 

Post Mon, Sep 21 2020, 10:05 am
[quote="amother [ OP ]"]Also I ask myself whether people enjoy those piyutim as much as they did centuries ago...

Personally, I have a very hard time understanding most piyutim...

Are there people who really understand and savor them in all their peotic glory?

Maybe there were beautiful melodies going with them, but they got lost? and now we have just a skeleton of what it should be?[/quot[

I am one of those nerds who actually enjoy the piyutim. I read the translation year after year and actually enjoy the poetry.
That being said; nerds do not enjoy many aspects of regular life that non-nerds enjoy on a daily basis.
I guess we are on the same page: coping with parts of life that are not a good fit for us..
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amother




Goldenrod
 

Post Mon, Sep 21 2020, 10:18 am
It's been a few years since I've been able to go to shul on the Yamim Noraim for the full davening. Some years, like this one, I don't make it at all due to having small children.

In the past, however, I found that the long davening kind of sets the tone for the day and makes it feel more serious than a regular Shabbos. I enjoy the singing and special tunes too. That's not to say that at certain points of davening (like the very repetitive avoda on Y"K) that I don't start counting how many pages are left in my machzor until the end of davening. Some times we can get impatient even with the best of intentions. That's when I spend some time reading the English translations of the piyutim and I know other people who bring appropriate reading material to get them through the "boring" parts.

On Yom Kippur it makes a lot of sense to have a long davening because what else is there to do? On Rosh Hashanah it's a tircha for the tzibbur to go too long because it's not a fast day and people should be able to go home and eat their yontif meal at a reasonable time. Shuls around here usually end somewhere between 12 and 1 PM on R"H but go longer on Y"K.
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CiCi




 
 
 
 

Post Mon, Sep 21 2020, 10:26 am
I never liked long davening because I have problems standing too long, but more than that, I didn't know the teicth so well. This year, because I've taught myself a lot of Loshen Hakodesh and Ivrit, I knew the translation of most of davening and it made an immense difference. It was the first year I actually enjoyed davening.
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