Child hits you | Imamother

keym

Thu, Sep 24 2020, 12:15 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

I raised ychildren who are now parents.

My children never hit me (I had a child who would tantrum and kick the wall when he heard no).

But I remember hitting my mother at around age 4 and that is what my mother said to me.

My Mother never looked so serious about any other bad behavior I did so it made a big impression
on me and I never did it again.

This is a powerful tool if you use it only for "Big Aveiros".

Here's the thing.
What makes a toddler hitting a parent (and not drawing blood) a Big Aveira?
What about playing with his muktza toys or coloring or turning on the light on Shabbos? That's pretty big too. Shabbos is Aseres Hadibros. That's a Big Aveira.
What about playing with a friend's tricycle without permission? That's stealing and also Aseres Hadibros. Also a Big Aveira.
And in some circles, a three year old girl running buck naked is part of gilui arayos. Also a Big Aveira.

My mother also punished and stuff for Kibbud Eim if we would hit or kick or talk back (as 2,3,4, 5 year olds). Because it was a Big Aveira
And my takeaway was that she only cared about Big Aveiras when it came to her ego or person. It wasn't because of Chinuch and raising us to do Hashem's mitzvos.
Because she only reacted big if we "disrespected" her, but not if we helped ourselves to milk right after meatballs, colored on Shabbos, hit the baby, or took our friends favorite eraser.
And there is a thing that a father is allowed to be moichel on his kovod.

#BestBubby

Thu, Sep 24 2020, 12:16 pm

keym wrote:

Do you have a 3 year old?
So you punish and they know they got you so they hit again. And again. And again.
Because they're 3 and frustrated and don't know how to express it.
And eventually what are you going to do. Beat him up? Tie him to a chair?

You are right that some children will "get back at you" even if it means punishment.

The trick is not to show you are upset by their actions and only the child should "lose out"
by misbehaving.

Don't yell or act upset. Just say "You did X so you lost your toy for the day"

Example:

When I told my son "no" he would kick the wall and scream - on and on and on and on...

I knew I was supposed to ignore him, but when it went on "forever"' I would lose it, and give him
a smack.

This repeated a couple of times and I realized my son wanted me to get angry to "get even".

It was worth a smack for his satisfaction in getting me angry.

So I was pro-active and made a plan where I would be able to ignore his tantrum.

Next time he started screaming and yelling - I locked myself in the bathroom. I had magazines to read and a radio to listen to. My son had no "audience" to watch him tantrum.

I stayed there until DS stopped screaming and kicking the wall. When DS saw he come out
he started screaming and kicking again.

I went back in the bathroom and continued to enjoy myself listening to the radio.

DS tried this one more time - and then stopped tantrumming completely.

DS knew that he could not get me upset with his tantrums.

#BestBubby

Thu, Sep 24 2020, 12:21 pm

keym wrote:

That was the biggest reaction I ever got from my Mother.

I was never chutzpadig to my parents and neither were my siblings - because my teachers scared us that this was a BIG AVEIRAH.

Sometimes we would argue, and beg - but no chutzpah (e.g. Mommy is crazy, stupid)

The next biggest Aveirah was Mechallel Shobbos and even as 2 year olds my Mother would say
in a shocked voice:

SHOBBOS! MUKTZAH!

and we respected Shobbos. I don't think we were angels and this worked on us.

amother

Jetblack

Thu, Sep 24 2020, 12:22 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

The Torah allows, even recommends, parents hitting their children.

Stop this nonsense of putting parents and children on the same level!

That's like saying police are bad for locking up criminals in jail.

Parents are like police, in your view?

I would like to have a relationship of trust with my children, not a relationship of policing, nor a relationship of physical violence....

#BestBubby

Thu, Sep 24 2020, 12:24 pm

Rappel wrote:

Good for you, Best Bubby, for giving yourself a way to keep your cool under stress!

Thank you.

I learned that when one faces a REPEATED parenting challenge, one must be PRO-ACTIVE
and strategize when one is calm how to stop the misbehavior.

amother

Jetblack

Thu, Sep 24 2020, 12:25 pm

keym wrote:

Yes, I agree. Many parents do that. They use "kibud av va eim" to serve their own purposes, it is so obviously bigotted....

#BestBubby

Thu, Sep 24 2020, 12:26 pm

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

Parents are like police, in your view?

I would like to have a relationship of trust with my children, not a relationship of policing, nor a relationship of physical violence....

I have a relationship of love and trust with my children.

But like Police, Parents are given AUTHORITY to punish children.

PARENTS AND CHILDREN ARE NOT EQUALS.

#BestBubby

Thu, Sep 24 2020, 12:29 pm

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

Yes, I agree. Many parents do that. They use "kibud av va eim" to serve their own purposes, it is so obviously bigotted....

It is definitely better if TEACHERS would stress Kibbud Av V'Eim so it does not look self-serving.

Also the Father should reprimand the children if they are disrespectful to Mother and Vice Versa.

Unfortunately, it not always possible and the Parent must do it herself.

But I would stress that this is a Commandment from Hashem - and the child knows this is True.

amother

Jetblack

Thu, Sep 24 2020, 12:30 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

I have a relationship of love and trust with my children.

But like Police, Parents are given AUTHORITY to punish children.

PARENTS AND CHILDREN ARE NOT EQUALS.

I agree that parents and children are not equals... and also that they have different rights and obligations...

On the other hand, corporal punishment is not an option.

Also we should not deliberately provoke children.

amother

Jetblack

Thu, Sep 24 2020, 12:32 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

I would stress it is a Commandment from Hashem when I do kibud av va em for my parents...

As you said: it is self-serving to stress it's a commandment from Hashem when you just want to increase your own authority...

#BestBubby

Thu, Sep 24 2020, 12:38 pm

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

It is not just because I want to increase my own authority.

It is because I want to save my children from doing an aveirah that one is Chayov Misah
for if they are over 12/13.

I frequently see on these threads, parents complaining of OLDER children (over 8) who are
still hitting their mother!!!

These parents say they are following the No Hitting and even No Punishing method - just trying
to reason with their children.

This "modern parenting" method obviously isn't working for these children.

These are children who are not only committing serious aveiros against their parents but
will probably abuse their spouse and children as well.

#BestBubby

Thu, Sep 24 2020, 12:40 pm

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

The Torah does give an option of corporal punishment - but I don't think it is mandatory.

Of course we should never provoke our children or place demands that are inappropriate.

That would be oiver: Lifnei Iver al Ti'tein Michshol.

keym

Thu, Sep 24 2020, 12:48 pm

But why are we determining that Kibbud Av Veim is the Big Aveira that we need to make sure our children don't get punished about at 12/13?
(That's besides the point that no one says "it's ok, hit Mommy".
We're just trying to work both on the emotional development and the behavioral. And scaring the child isn't always the best technique.)
But what about eating bugs. I believe that carries the most lavvin in the Torah. So if we are going berry picking and my 2 yr old kid eats one without checking it, that should be the opportunity to do the stern Big Aveira Bug!!
What about not hurting an Almana or Yasom. I believe it is mentioned the most times in the Torah. I lost my father at 16. You wouldn't believe the amount of "good obedient children who would never dream of talking back to their mother" who said the most hurtful and unimaginably painful things to me. Isn't that a Big Aveira!!!!!
The fact that we've chosen Kibud Av just feels so self serving and hypocritical, that I won't choose that for my kids.
And btw my 12/13 kids don't hit me, or talk back to me with chutzpa even though I didn't scare the Chutzpa and hitting out of them at 3.

metacognizant

Thu, Sep 24 2020, 1:18 pm

I have an almost-4 year old and lately this is what's working for me: When he hits me, I gently grab his hand and start using it to pretend hit myself some more, while saying "Ow, why are you hitting me? Why are you hitting me?" or sometimes I grab his hand and make him hit himself while saying "Why are you hitting yourself?" etc. This immediately makes him laugh and then we can laugh at ourselves. Some people will say I should take a more serious response. But I feel like (1) My son KNOWS that hitting is not allowed. He's not dumb, he understands what the rules are, but he has NO impulse control. (2) I work full time and usually when my son hits me it's in the dinner hour after I come home from work. He's telling me through his behavior that he missed me and he was angry at me for leaving. (3) The time when my son is already angry and dis-regulated is not a time when I am going to teach him ANYTHING for his own behavior. However I CAN model conflict de-escalation, which is a pretty important relationship skill. It's not something my parents taught me, either through modeling or direct interactions, but it's something I'm trying to learn and put into practice. The best way to de-escalate conflict between two parties who really love each other is humor, and silliness in particular. TL:DR I use humor to defuse and de-escalate. That usually works, but if it doesn't, I walk away.

Last edited by metacognizant on Thu, Sep 24 2020, 3:00 pm; edited 2 times in total

metacognizant

Thu, Sep 24 2020, 1:25 pm

Also a lot of people have mentioned talking to little kids about Hashem, Kibbud Av Va'Em, Aveiros etc. These are obviously important things to teach our children. But I prefer to tell these things to my son when he's already calm, happy, and "on board" for whatever I'm teaching him. NOT when he's already doing a thing that he KNOWS I don't like. If he and I are ALREADY in a conflict situation, and he hits me, and I say "That's an aveira" he'll usually say something like "Good! I want to do aveiros!" because we're ALREADY in conflict. Not once would he says something like, "Oh no, aveiros are bad, I'm going to stop." Maybe my son is more defiant than most (I doubt it though). But I want to leave chinuch for the happy, cooperative times, and not use it as a bludgeon that will only cause him to resent Torah. And yes, I do make him wear tzitzis, keep kosher, etc. But when he resists the tzitzis, I'll tell him, wearing tzitzis is a rule in our house. When it's NOT a conflict prone getting-dressed time, that's when I teach him about the actual mitzvah.

Last edited by metacognizant on Thu, Sep 24 2020, 1:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

keym

Thu, Sep 24 2020, 1:27 pm

metacognizant wrote:

Also a lot of people have mentioned talking to little kids about Hashem, Kibbud Av Va'Em, Aveiros etc. These are obviously important things to teach our children. But I prefer to tell these things to my son when he's already calm, happy, and "on board" for whatever I'm teaching him. NOT when he's already doing a thing that he KNOWS I don't like. If he and I are ALREADY in a conflict situation, and he hits me, and I say "That's an aveira" he'll usually say something like "Good! I want to do aveiros!" because we're ALREADY in conflict. Not once would he says something like, "Oh no, aveiros are bad, I'm going to stop." Maybe my son is more defiant than most (I doubt it though). But I want to leave chinuch for the happy, cooperative times, and not use it as a bludgeon that will only cause him to resent Torah. And yes, I do make him wear tzitzis, keep kosher, etc. But when he resists the tzitzis, I'll tell him, wearing tzitzis is a rule in our house. When it's NOT actually a conflict prone getting-dressed time, that's when I teach him about the actual mitzvah.

Very well put.

Zehava

Thu, Sep 24 2020, 2:54 pm

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

Of course!

That's a rule that applies to every family member.

I would not tolerate my husband hitting me, and I don't tolerate my child hitting me.
I would not tolerate my husband insulting me, and I don't tolerate my child insulting me.

Those are my basic rights!!!! And I enforce them!!!!!

And of course I don't hit, neither my husband nor my children.
I abide by the same rules!!!

I find it strange, zehava, that you have no clear vision of those basic rules.

Children also have to abide by the rules. It's no free-for all...

Yeah so the thing is that you and your husband have at least a 20 year advantage and Fully developed Brains over your kids. So your kids WILL mess up sometimes. Be gentle with them while they learn. Understand that it’s not coming from a place of trying to hurt you. Teach them without hurting them back.

amother

Mint

Thu, Sep 24 2020, 3:25 pm

When people bring up older children hitting parents, I would say it is extremely likely to be due to other factors. Emotional or mental health issues. Your typical 8 year old is NOT doing that. Even if it's not directly taught at home they get socialized at school and see through modeling that it is not socially acceptable to hit adults or other kids (ok, excepting their siblings, lol).