How would you feel if someone didn’t tell you they were a BT

amother

Gold

Fri, Sep 25 2020, 8:55 am

I am a geyoris, and do not publicize it. My close friends know. Others who know me think I’m a bt, and acquaintances know nothing .

I’m not ashamed. I am proud. But it’s private. It’s a very intense private journey and I don’t have to tell anyone.

Early on I was a lot more open and got many extremely inappropriate questions .

Do I still talk to my parents? Who paid for my wedding? Did I use to be mean when I was a [gentile]?

I mean, if I don’t speak to my parents do you think I need to tell you , stranger , that in line at the pizza store?

I do live in a yeshivish community. The people who know “my story” don’t care other than being impressed by it and they are very appropriate. These are the people I care about. I have no interest in being friends with Yentl down the street who is going to ask me questions about what the mikvah felt like the first time, and I don’t care if she judges me, but I have no interest in subjecting myself to such uncomfortable situations.

I have also been asked to speak at Shabbatonim and school programs; however I want my kids to be “regular” and not “the geyoris’s kids”, so it’s not something I would do at this stage in my life.

FWIW my father was Jewish and I look exactly like him, so I look very Jewish whatever that means. My father grew up on the lower east side speaking Yiddish. Although I myself come from a very unusual place, I have B”H been able to blend in quite well (at least I think so...)

I would like to add my husband was told in chassan classes that he should assume anyone who didn’t grow up frum had a past with other men. I can tell you that it’s a weird assumption. While that may be the case for the majority of women, it’s not 95%, more like 60%... and depending on when they become frum. Furthermore someone who becomes religious likely was somewhat more moral that average before hence their draw towards frumkeit. It’s also weird that someone at a Shabbos meal with a BT would automatically think about you The BT’s past love life. Seems a bit perverted if you ask me...

amother

Gold

Fri, Sep 25 2020, 8:57 am

Elfrida wrote:

I've been thinking about this. I don't think a BT has to inform anyone (except in a shidduch context).

On the other hand, if I was close friends with someone and had known her for a number of years, I might be hurt that she was keeping such a significant part of her life a secret from me. It's a major part of how she grew up, and how her character developed, and gives a wider understanding of who she is.

I don't mean that it has to come up in every interaction, or that there needs to be any formal announcement, but in a close relationship there would be occasions where something like that would come up naturally. If I discovered that a really close friend had been deliberately hiding something like that from me, I might begin wondering what else they had been hiding and what the friendship really was.

I don’t see how you can be close to someone for years and them not know you’re a BT. Unless you only discuss recipes and where to find Lil legs on sale Smile

avrahamama

Fri, Sep 25 2020, 9:14 am

Frumme wrote:

Yes. There are people who unfortunately actually believe BTs are "ruining" things for FFBs, in terms of bringing in secular influences (ideas, styles), "lowering" the tznius + spirituality of the community, etc etc thereby delaying the coming of Moshiach. It comes out sometimes unintentionally, but you'll get vibes that BTs can't ever really be trusted with kashrus, or that they must be doing something wrong (always looking for BTs to make mistakes). Sometimes they try to be helpful and give you a "psak" about whatever. It's often a bias they haven't dealt with (would they have said the same to their FFB friend?), but the point is that as soon as some people hear you are BT, you've gained a completely different status in their mind. Even if you became BT as a child, or have been a BT for 40 years....

And unfortunately, I've even seen it here on Imamother. I'll have to look for the thread later, but I remember one in this past year that discussed BTs, geirim, and kiruv. There were a few strange comments about BTs in there, if I remember correctly....

I'm so glad that I'm not part of a ffb community. but rather a traditional sephardi community that has taken on more and more in practice and observance over the last 30 years.

and I'm so glad that I dont feel the urge to send to an "in town" school so that I can be accepted by the broader ffb world.

as far as I'm concerned any lowered standards in culture or practice a person bring onto themselves. I for sure didn't introduce it to anyone.

gold21

Fri, Sep 25 2020, 9:23 am

Frumme wrote:

It's really odd to me that there are people who think this way. Am I living in la la land in a community where nobody cares one way or another about someone's BT status or lack thereof? It's just not that interesting or important to people around here. And there are definitely BT's living here.

A giyores/ger would seem interesting/ different/ significant to me (and I think to the majority of frum people) but I really couldn't care one way or another about someone having a BT past, and most people I know couldn't care one way or another about it either.

amother

Aubergine

Fri, Sep 25 2020, 9:35 am

gold21 wrote:

In many OOT communities, there are so many BTs and even gerim that nobody finds it that novel. Mine is like that.

amother

Purple

Fri, Sep 25 2020, 9:36 am

amother [ Gold ] wrote:

I'm also a geyores. I used to be more open about it. It's certainly not a secret, but I also wasn't interested in 1. being the dinner entertainment once I outed myself and 2. being reminded by other converts everytime I saw them about being a convert. Both of those things would happen, and I just stopped talking about it as openly. So, sometimes I do bring it up in passing when relevant with a friend or acquaintance, and I'm surprised that they are surprised because my community isn't that big and it's not a secret or even something I want to hide.

Anyways, I wouldn't be with or around anyone who treated me as a pariah or a fascination...which is probably why I keep to myself more as time goes on.

amother

Teal

Fri, Sep 25 2020, 9:44 am

amother [ Purple ] wrote:

Similar. I'm a convert and rarely bring it up. I'm not ashamed of it in the slightest and still have good relationships with friends and family in the non-frum world. But I'm sick of the rude and disrespectful comments and the entirely unwarranted assumptions I get from parts of the frum community. If I had a dime for every time I told someone to mind their own business, I could retire.

I started out converting through the Conservative movement in the US and have found US Conservative and Reform Jews to be much more accepting (not to mention polite) of converts in their midst. Obviously YMMV with this, but that was my experience.

amother

Khaki

Fri, Sep 25 2020, 9:51 am

amother [ Gold ] wrote:

As a child of a geyores who kept it a secret (even though many people seemed to know) please don't. I hate(d) that this was something we were not allowed to talk about. Still today, I feel mild guilt when I mention it, I am a very open person and I really don't like keeping secrets.

I was very accepted in school and had no social issues due to this, except for a lack of close frum relatives.

My in laws, being slightly eccentric people, (also BTs) were thrilled that I had an unusual backgroud and saw my lack of yichus as a maaleh. LOL

amother

Gold

Fri, Sep 25 2020, 10:02 am

gold21 wrote:

A giyores/ger would seem interesting/ different/ significant to me (and I think to the majority of frum people) but I really couldn't care one way or another about someone having a BT past, and most people I know couldn't care one way or another about it either.

Can you or anyone else please explain this a little moRe?
I sort of feel like some people think Gerim are put here to inspire FFBs (particularly ones who are jaded or bored or wandering ), and tell them how lucky they are to be born Jewish etc. I once had a madricha of a kiruv trip pull me over without warning and ask me to say something to her group. You want a dvar Torah on the parsha? I could probably do that... you want me to tell you my personal life story that was extremely emotional and difficult to a random group of teenagers with no warning ... no thanks. It was one thing when I was 19 and just starting out but now that I’m married and have kids in school and live in a big community ... I don’t really want to be interesting (my hobbies are interesting, my jokes are interesting , I like to think I have a good personality and get along with all types etc... but I don’t want my PERSON to be interesting , solely because of where I come from and the fact that my mother isn’t Jewish.’I just want to be your friend).

And that goes along with something else. My friends have never probed. Amongst those who do probe I often want to ask “I’m glad you find me so inspirational, but if it were nogeyah, would you you be okay with your child marrying mine ?” Usually I think not .

Not meaning to pick on you, I just see this sentiment a lot.

Lhavdil... it reminds me of a teenager I recently heard lament that her bubby won’t talk about the Holocaust. She wants to know what happened. I told her, I get why you want to know. But she doesn’t have to reveal private pain for other people’s inspiration . You know she went through terror, you see her amazing today, that’s enough. Its her story to share or to not share.

amother

Gold

Fri, Sep 25 2020, 10:03 am

amother [ Khaki ] wrote:

Thanks - our situation is a very delicate sensitive one and Bh we have a rav guiding us on how to handle everything as far as the kids.

amother

Ginger

Fri, Sep 25 2020, 10:26 am

I have a friend that did gyiur at age 5, together with her mother and brothers, her father was born Jewish. She has no memories of any life different than a frum life since even before that they were observant, I don't see why she should have to disclose any of this.

Another one grew up frum, but found out later she needed to convert.

I think these are private matters and it's halacha that we shouldn't embarrass a BT or ger or remind them of their past, so I think this is something personal for each one to decide and no one has the " right" to know anyone's story(unless for shidduch).

amother

Gold

Fri, Sep 25 2020, 10:33 am

amother [ Ivory ] wrote:

It really isn't anyone's business, unless the person brings it up for discussion. Shidduchim is different because the potential spouse might have to be able to accept having non-religious or non-Jewish relatives (through intermarriage in the BTs family) and all that comes with it.

Does an FFB who went OTD and then became observant again need to reveal that on a date? Is this appropriate table conversation? After all, these are very interesting stories!

That absolutely would be disclosed in shidduchim- but it shouldn’t need to be disclosed to random people or coworkers etc like people think one being a BT or a ger is public info.

amother

Floralwhite

Fri, Sep 25 2020, 11:03 am

In the same vain, I grew up with severe parental abuse and trauma. Do you think everyone I meet is entitled to that info too?

And no, my BFF does not know about that either. Although she knows most of my current struggles amd must have picked up some of it.... She has met my parents on many occasions and "knows" my mother pretty well. Abuse and dysfunction can be hidden very very very verrrry well.

I first met my friend as an adult. And we built a relationship over the years as adults. With shared intrests, experiences, caring and sharing.

The only people outside my siblings who know about that is my husband, therapist and the woman on the private severe parental abuse forum on imamother.

Childhood history is history. It is not relevant to today unless its a potentially future spouse.