Fear based Yiddishkeit

Puppies

Tue, Sep 29 2020, 4:55 pm

I'm noticing several threads lately that are all about fear of sinning or doing the wrong thing. I imagine the uptick is due to the Yomim Noraim, but in the past many of these posts touch on various aspects of taharas hamishpocho.

I'm trying to make sense of a hashkofo that is so fear based. I see Hashem as a kind, loving G-d who gave us mitzvos as a way to connect to Him. I also know that He created me as a human who will make mistakes at times, who has a yetzer hara and my own personal circumstances. Hashem therefore, expects me to try my best, but allows for teshuva for when I fall short.

But I read threads where women are almost paralyzed by their fear of their wrongdoing. Forget about whether their action is even a mitzva d'oraysa, many times it is about a d'rabanan or even a minhag or hashkafic nuance. And for sure, these actions aren't done on purpose, but are mostly mistakes. How do you live your life with such a punishment focused viewpoint? How can you be b'simcha ever if all you think about is how you will mess up?

I'd love to understand as this is so different to how I was taught, and how I live.

amother

Apricot

Tue, Sep 29 2020, 5:08 pm

I think we are programmed to spin things in a positive even though we have absolutely no idea. Sure we could say that hashem is kind and loving.....except when he isn't. I know, I know, EVERYTHING is for the best, even sickness, poverty, and death. They are all acts of love and kindness.

We believe in schar v'onesh. That means that those that have sinned will be punished. The punishments in the torah involve beheading, stoning, choking, and burning. I know, they are all acts of love. But after a person dies the punishments for aveiros won't be that bad? Why would I believe that?

lilies

Tue, Sep 29 2020, 5:20 pm

amother [ Apricot ] wrote:

You mean when you think He isn't Very Happy

We also believe in Teshuvah, and H' is merciful and we don't understand everything in this world.
But that is not what OP is discussing, and as much as you might try to make sense of things, you can't. It's an age-old discussion that many wiser people than anyone on this site has had and the only thing everyone agrees on is that we have to wait for the next world to understand it. I'm not rushing it.

imorethanamother

Tue, Sep 29 2020, 5:23 pm

It's not fear based, it's based on the idea that actions have consequences. Gemara goes into great lengths to discuss various horrible things that happened to people on account of something they did wrong.

Rabbi Rosner's Shabbos Shuva speech brought up Nachum Ish Gam Zu. Apparently he was blind and had no legs because one time a poor person came to him for money while he was on a camel or donkey. He said "hold on, let me get it", and the poor person died. He asked Hashem to send him these maladies as a way to metakayn.

I don't know how God works or anything, but sometimes your view of happy love fun times of Judaism is also slightly incorrect.

I like your viewpoint, though, and I think we should all adopt it. Just don't belittle other people for theirs, when it does have evidence in the canon.

lilies

Tue, Sep 29 2020, 5:30 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

What OP is referring to are the many threads, usually on TH where many of those are by women suffering from OCD, or abuse.
That is not based on the idea that actions have consequences. It is also not due to a certain hashkafah being taught (though that certainly doesn't help.)

Yiras Shomayim does not an unhealthy individual make.

amother

Mint

Tue, Sep 29 2020, 5:36 pm

OCD is where you second guess yourself that you did a bedika or maybe what you are seeing as a clear bedika is actually bright red. But I don’t Have OCD but I have learned about the terrible punishment to those who violate TH so it does freak me out a bit too sometimes. Keep in mind that most of is don’t freak out about Shabbos as much because we grow up with it (assuming FFB) while we only really learn TH as a young adult and we are thrust into it with no practice. Having a good rav who you can call with questions does help a great deal

amother

Apricot

Tue, Sep 29 2020, 5:37 pm

lilies wrote:

You mean when you think He isn't Very Happy

I was taught that this life is merely a pathway to the next world which is etarnal. Our actions and deeds during our time on this earth will determine whether we go to olam habba, where if we accumulate all the happiness and pleasure that happened in this world it does not amount to a single moment in the next world. On the other hand if we sin in this world then our soul must repent by going to gehenim. It's awfully hot down there although the fires are turned off for shabbos.

Now you can say that this isn't what life is really all about. It's about building a relationship with hashem. But my feeling is that if you believe in schar v'onesh, (and of course we do) then we can't reason that part of our religion isn't fear based. It's not being honest to make that argument.

amother

Salmon

Tue, Sep 29 2020, 5:46 pm

I was definitely taught wrong.
It was relentlessly shoved down my throat that this is wrong and this is wrong and this is wrong and this is wrong, and even when you’re doing the right thing, you’re doing it the wrong way.
Needless to say, I always had a hatred of the religion that got worse after I got married because of mikvah.
I was always too scared to go off the derech, and now I can’t because of my husband and kids.

lilies

Tue, Sep 29 2020, 6:04 pm

amother [ Apricot ] wrote:

Some people may be here to rectify some previous life's wrongdoing. Some people may be receiving lots of pain and suffering for their actions on this world and have a beautiful next world. Some people may be receiving lots of pain and suffering not due to their actions, only so that they can have a beautiful next world. What do we know?
I don't believe this is what is being taught in this generation, as we are not at that level of yiddishkeit. We need to try and do our best, and then do Teshuvah when we fall short. It's not about how hot and when the fires are turned off in Gehenom.
It makes me wonder if those who taught these concepts were suffering from abuse themselves.

PinkFridge

Tue, Sep 29 2020, 6:48 pm

SuperWify wrote:

Interesting question. While I don’t believe in fire and brimstone Judaism many of us were taught how hot the fires of geheniom are.

As an aside, there is a commandment if yiras hashem.

I've learned that yiras Hashem is the flip side of ahavas Hashem. If you love someone you are very careful not to do something that could be offensive to that person. This is the attitude for yiras Hashem.

Frumme

Tue, Sep 29 2020, 7:51 pm

There are two main streams of Judaism-- those that believe that a) through fear of Hashem, one loves Hashem, or a) through love of Hashem, one fears Hashem.

Both are valid approaches. The point is that we need both-- one is not more important than the other. You can't have gevurah without the chessed and vice versa. The unfortunate part here is when one is taught unevenly from the other, and that's where these issues arise (it happens on both sides). Too much gevurah and things like OCD & anxiety rear their ugly heads; too much chessed and things like ego and laxity come about. You need balance.

amother [ Apricot ] wrote:

I disagree, but I understand where you are coming from. Personally I believe that we are put into this world to make the world a dwelling place for the Shechinah, in order to bring Moshiach and the world to come for everyone, not only focusing on our own heavenly reward. That is done by doing things like mitzvos, which ethereal beings like angels are limited in doing (e.g. angels can't eat and so can't bless the food that Hashem has created). I don't think myself so special to assume that I will get olam habah; but I can at least try to make the world a better place while I'm here. You have to make the best of your (iyH) 120, and the best way to do that is by living in the present. Not the past or the future, but the now.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Sep 30 2020, 4:38 am

Some people were taught that everything is wrong unless told otherwise.
Others were taught that everything is allowed unless told otherwise.
The first group has been taught with fear always right near them.
The second group has been taught through love and seeing how others do things.

The first group will need a lot of "reprogramming" to change their outlook.
The second group will hopefully be able to help them.

amother

Lavender

Wed, Sep 30 2020, 6:25 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

It says in Chazal that yirah without ahava is a "chatzi avodah," a half-work, whereas ahava without yirah is "lo avodas klum" - no work at all.

There does need to be a balance between the two. Being taught that everything is allowed unless told otherwise leaves an awful lot of room for error in halacha.

I was not taught that everything is wrong unless told otherwise (except with regard to hilchos Shabbos, in which I would maintain that this is the case to a large extent). I was taught that halacha is the guide by which I live my life. Sometimes halacha says something is mutar, and sometimes halacha says something is assur. If halacha doesn't say anything or says "it depends," I'll look at it through the lens of "v'asisa hayashar v'hatov" - what is the right thing to do for me? Usually that means using common sense. Sometimes it entails asking a Rav for hadracha.

That being said, I did find there to be an excessive amount of fear-mongering in the Yiddishkeit I was taught in school. Way too much talk about punishment, Gehinnom, etc. I still consider myself yeshivish, but I have found myself a Rav and a mehalech that allows for individual circumstances and is far more accepting of my personal situation. My life would have been ruined otherwise.

amother

Violet

Wed, Sep 30 2020, 6:57 am

amother [ Apricot ] wrote:

We believe in s'char ve onesh, but we also believe אין בידינו לא מיסורי צדיקים ואף לא משלוות רשעים ie we don't know why anyone is suffering or living well, there is no direct correlation and the riddle will not be solved in olam haze...

In my view, it can be a consolation to see even bad things happening as ratzon hashem... for some, it works, for others it doesn't...

amother

Violet

Wed, Sep 30 2020, 7:03 am

It's not only about "fear based yiddishkeit", there is also a lot of "functional based yiddishkeit" around, meaning: I do what I think Hashem wants from me, and hope that in return Hashem will give me everything I want from him...

this is also particularly obvious around yamim noraim: I suppose that many people go to shule to "beyt zich oys" a good year...

They think that there is a direct link between their tfilot on yamim noraim and their quality of life the following year... and that's what motivates them to go to shul, pray, even if they do not particularly like otherwise...

honeymoon

Wed, Sep 30 2020, 7:23 am

SuperWify wrote:

Interesting question. While I don’t believe in fire and brimstone Judaism many of us were taught how hot the fires of geheniom are.

As an aside, there is a commandment if yiras hashem.

Yiras shomayim is defined as awe. When one is in awe of someone they strive to emulate and please them. It is not meant to make you tremble in fear while you observe the mitzvahs.

Unfortunately, many of us were taught a fire and brimstone version of yiddishkeit. Part of it was a result of the chaos of post world war 2 when parents were desperate to see nachas and were losing their children to the challenges of the time. And the cycle continued through the following generations. It's up to us to break that cycle and redefine and teach yiddishkeit as what it really is.