Which area in israel is like cedarhurst NY

moonstone

Tue, Oct 13 2020, 8:24 am

DrMom wrote:

This is so dumb I can't even

ETA: I am not calling you, LovesHashem, dumb. I meant the rule is arbitrary and silly.

The "denim is evil" rule IS dumb. I don't get it. I don't understand a lot of charedi rules (many of which are relatively new), but the ban on denim seems especially ridiculous.

Weren't jeans invented for prospectors out west in the 1800s? How on earth can they be considered dangerously modern and cool???

LovesHashem

Tue, Oct 13 2020, 8:33 am

amother [ Apricot ] wrote:

Agree completely.
OP, do you know anyone who lives in RBS at all?
Can you join the RBS Facebook group? Contact the Nefesh Bnefesh rep for RBS? (Listed on their website)
You need to speak to people who send their kids to schools like
Magen Avot
Netzach
Bnos Malka
Darchei Noam
and get a feel for the student and parent body.
Good luck!

Even for all these schools (Except Magen Avot which is considered to be very DL leaning - girls cannot get into a standard BY anymore graduating from there) if the father shows up to the interview in jeans, or the school would KNOW he wears jeans on a daily basis - forget about it.

Unless the father is working as a painter or plumber and wears them to and for work only.

LovesHashem

Tue, Oct 13 2020, 8:38 am

moonstone wrote:

Jeans are considered casual wear. According to some opinions casual wear is forbidden if not frowned down upon (I believe it's the latter), there is mitzvah to dress dignified and proper - in hebrew this is called Mechubad and it stems from the meaning of the word tzanuah is translated at mechubad and proper in the first place it's mentioned in the tanach.

Jeans fall into the casual clothing line, along with hoodies, maxi skirts, slinky skirts, tshirts, etc

All of the things I just mentioned are also now allowed in chareidi society and this is why.

So yes there's a REAL source for these ideas! And yes I try to dress mechubad, and not look "casual". I do wear all of the above things (except denim) but not together, and not every maxi skirt or hoodie will I just pick up. It depends on how it looks.

amother

Bronze

Tue, Oct 13 2020, 8:51 am

salt wrote:

Why?
In every society you 'need' to do certain things in order to fit in. What she's saying is that you will simple not fit in if you want to be considered charedi and you wear jeans. You won't be thrown out of a shul, or spat on, or whatever you might think of, but it's just not done. You'll be too different.

There are plenty of (not charedi) yishuvim that have acceptance criteria - no TV, cover your hair, etc, I know of chiloni moshavim that require you to have a academic degree in order to live there. If you really want to join these communities, you change, if not, you go elsewhere.

I know of high-schools where if you don't learn to drive when you turn 17 then your peers will look at you and think - either you're poor, or something's wrong - you have ADD or I don't know.
Or if your parents don't let you get a smartphone when you're 12 years old, you'll; simply be out of the loop and be a drop out.

It's not dumb. It's how society works. Societies make 'rules'.

I agree that all societies have rules. But some have many more rules than others.
(Just for the record, in an Israeli high school, believe me, doesn't matter if it's secular or DL - there are TONS of kids who don't learn to drive at 17. It is absolutely not something that everyone does, at least not in most cities/schools I have come across).
Chiloni moshavim accept everyone. If you mean a yeshuv, well, yeshuvim in general are notoriously selective, and the dati yeshuvim are the most selective of all, so not the best example. Yeshuvim in any case are a tiny segment of society.
Yes most kids need a smartphone here in most circles, but that's not because it's trendy but rather because that's how kids communicate. If you aren't on whatsapp, it's like not having a home phone number 30 years ago.

In most DL and secular Israeli society, the range of options open to you in terms of dress, vocation, lifestyle etc is vast. When people say everything here is very boxed in, it's mostly the very RW circles here (charedi and sometimes also chardal/RW Torani).

In short, it's not true that all societies in Israel are very boxy. I realize it doesn't help one if you davka want to join charedi society, but just know that not everyone lives in fear that the color of their nail polish or the material their pants are made of will get them ostracized or kicked out of school.

chanchy123

Tue, Oct 13 2020, 9:35 am

vonigzan wrote:

thanks for your reply-I really appreciate the honesty- we would definitely change that small thing in order to get into BY schools
we are looking for seperate schools, not coed so im sure my husband wouldnt mind changing to get into a strong yeshiva
can you name a few yeshivos in rbs a that are BY, interestede for both my son and daughter ty
bte

Most DL schools are not co-ed. I honestly don’t get it. Why do people insist they want a BY education in Israel but list a bunch of values and conduct that are just not compatible with BY schools here.
For all you “modern yeshivish” Americans, really list your priorities in hashkafa and lifestyle to figure out if that is equivalent to chareidi (it probably won’t be), and try to find an equivalent community with similar values and lifestyle even if the girls’ schools aren’t titled Bays Yakov. I don’t understand why you are so adamant you are chareidi, while you clearly are not.

Also, I agree with the previous poster, if enough of you come, you can establish new institutions tailored to your values. There are MANY local Israelis “chareidim ovdim” who currently grit their teeth and send to chareidi institutions who would thank you.
ETA
It works both ways, If I moved to America today I’d probably end up sending my kids to one of your institutions and not a MO school which would be too modern for me.

chanchy123

Tue, Oct 13 2020, 9:52 am

Adding- being chareidi in Israel means very Lakewood yeshivish - more or less, for better or for worse, kolel lifestyle, strict social rules, hard to get into schools, etc etc. If you wouldn’t choose that in the US there is no reason to choose that here.
There are just so many more ways to be Jewish and shomer mitzvot here. Don’t let externals like sheital wearing, black kipot, or BY uniforms confuse you. These are different ways of life.
There are many many yeshivot, girls schools, Talmud Torah’s and more that are beyond the chareidi community. There is no reason to give up on Aliyah just because the chareidi community here is different than middle of the road frum in the US. Follow values and not externals. And by all means come in large group and establish your very specific flavor of Judaism if you can.

Success10

Tue, Oct 13 2020, 9:59 am

chanchy123 wrote:

I think the issue is Zionism. I don't want to start a whole discussion on the topic since it doesn't end, but Yeshvish families in the US aren't Zionist, so they can try to fake it so their kids can attend an open-minded school system, but how will those kids turn out? I'm asking honestly.

I liked Dr. Mom's idea of olim starting their own movement. And, yes, there are TONS of Chareidim already living here who would gladly join them.

amother

Apricot

Tue, Oct 13 2020, 10:08 am

chanchy123 wrote:

AGREE!!! One of my biggest pet peeves.
People talk LH about Israel, how you have to fit in a box, etc. and I feel it's the opposite. Decide what is important to you and find a school that mostly fits your beliefs. Who cares if it's called a BY, or chareidi or DL or Chardal, or whatever.
Don't worry about the labels.

chanchy123

Tue, Oct 13 2020, 10:11 am

Success10 wrote:

I agree that Zionism and army service are core issues. I think if people come in a large enough group they can start by forming a bloc in existing schools so their kids have a bunch of like minded peers and eventually start their own schools.
Regarding Zionism, I think it’s a spectrum, there’s a huge middle between being not in particular gong Ho Zionist and being anti Zionists.
As someone who is gung-ho Zionist, I obviously think that once a person of reason is exposed to the facts they too would adopt Zionism 😉. But realistically I think if you’re pretty neutral on the subject and basically support the existence of the state of Israel even if you don’t give it religious meaning and can concede with your son participating in a yeshiva setting short army service (which many modern chareidim - the Israeli equivalents- do too), they will do fine.
It’s obviously not the path for a Satmer family, but could work for a regular frum yeshivish family.

amother

Copper

Tue, Oct 13 2020, 10:12 am

chanchy123 wrote:

Your posts on this thread are wonderful!!

We are planning aliya within the next 1-2 years. Right away I realized we cannot be chareidi in Israel. It is way more to the right than we are in NY.

I will say, I have gotten a lot of criticism from family members for the choices that we are making. I'm ignoring them because I know this is the best choice for my family. But not everyone is so strong. You can't believe the comments I've been getting because I'm not sending my daughters to a Bais Yaakov!

Ruchel

Tue, Oct 13 2020, 10:13 am

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

I'm going to rip the bandaid off here even though its gonna hurt. If the dad wears jeans, no BY style school is going to take the kids...even more so if they are sefardi. I wish with all my heart it wasn't the case, but I think its better to face the reality. In america there's so much gray area, my dad wears jeans, my mom covers her hair partially, and we went to top Bais Yaakov's in the US. That is NOT the case here in EY. I'm sorry. If the kids are thriving in good frum schools in the US think really really really hard if you want to uproot them in put them through such a trauma only to put them in schools that might not have been your top pick in the US.

MAYBE way out of town, or in some modern BY in israel, heard of one in BB (yes I was surprised) another in petach tikva, perhaps tiberias ?
But it's not europe or usa
and yes, army (boys) many Europeans "love" the army but don't want ther kids there, and some of them aren't at all charedi. My modern parents would never have wanted a son in the army

Success10

Tue, Oct 13 2020, 10:14 am

chanchy123 wrote:

Agreed. A lot of OOT types could transition nicely into Torani societies. I think it would be a better choice than Chareidi for many of these families.

amother

Apricot

Tue, Oct 13 2020, 10:15 am

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

Stay strong! As I said above, labels don't matter. There are schools here which are not called BY but are very similar to "OOT open minded" schools in America which do call themselves BY.
It's just a label!
I went to a BY in America which is much more to the left than another RW school in the city which gave itself a different name. Such silliness.
Make the choices which are right for your family and don't listen to anyone who doesn't know all the facts. Mazal tov on your aliyah plans!

imasoftov

Tue, Oct 13 2020, 10:28 am

LovesHashem wrote:

the word tzanuah is translated at mechubad and proper in the first place it's mentioned in the tanach

The root צנע appears twice in Tanach, but I don't know if you mean the first time the root appears, or the first time it appears as an adjective.

The first time the root appears, Micha 6:8, it's a verb - וְהַצְנֵ֥עַ לֶ֖כֶת. That can't be translated into English as two verbs, the translation at this link says "walk modestly". Or the translation at Chabad.org is "walk discreetly".

The second time the root is found as an adjective, Mishlei 11:2 - צְנוּעִ֥ים. The translation there is "unassuming" and Chabad.org has "modest".

amother

Pearl

Tue, Oct 13 2020, 10:56 am

It’s not about semantics and the name “bais yaakov” it’s a set of values that we don’t want to give up. I hate to give examples because now everyone will nitpick me. But at risk of being stoned- like giving young teenagers smartphones, allowing video games (the dress, language, violence), exposure and acceptance of secular culture. attitude towards chumras and kulas. Daas Torah. (Those of us that consider ourselves modern yeshivish, believe in Daas Torah, and consult on key things, not in a ask every question don’t make a move without it way like chareidim) we want our kids to get college degrees but would NEVER send them to live on campus in a secular environment. (I’m not saying everyone does, I’m saying Many consider it an “option on the table”. There are too many big things on either side of the equation that make moving a really big risk. Who I am and What I believe in works well where I am now.

chanchy123

Tue, Oct 13 2020, 10:58 am

amother [ Pearl ] wrote:

Sounds pretty much like my Torani neighbors.

amother

Violet

Tue, Oct 13 2020, 11:11 am

OP- I'm wondering if Karmiel would be an option?? Anyone know about the community there? Seems more like out of town US / more open minded etc.

To the poster who said forget about labels etc etc. The OP's question is Which community resembles cedarhurst NY...she didn't ask "What the most out of town place in Israel. SHe didnt ask which community resembles Cincinnati or Detroit...I don't think she's looking for a melting pot with no labels like a super out of town everything goes sort of place...she's looking for something that resembles her particular community, the one she's currently raising her children in. I could be wrong though.

amother

Apricot

Tue, Oct 13 2020, 11:13 am

amother [ Pearl ] wrote:

Why would anyone nitpick or stone you?
These are your values. So now do your research and find a community/schools where you would fit in.
You may have to bend on some things, but that's how life works.

ETA: As someone wrote above, you sound very much like my (Israeli) Torani neighbors as well.