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Success10




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Oct 15 2020, 12:09 pm
I'm a Chareidi in Israel and I've never personally witnessed any police brutality towards Chareidim or anyone. I educate my kids from the get-go to play by the rules and also that police are out to help us. I feel if you go around with a victim mentality, then maybe you're more likely to wind up being a victim?
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BadTichelDay




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Oct 15 2020, 12:12 pm
Blessing1 wrote:
I see the hostility towards chassidim and yeshivish/litvish black hatters every time we visit. I'm always surprised how mean the police are. Maybe they have no choice and they need to be more tough? But they're definitely mean and not nice. They don't think twice about using violence towards chassidim and frum jews. My father was once pushed and shoved wildly in Meron for no reason. Literally out of the blue. They wanted them to move faster in a congested area so they just pushed them instead of asking them to walk faster.


The police in Israel have a general reputation of being mean and they dish it out to everyone, not just chassidim and yeshivish chareidim.
The secular left wing demonstrators that are on the lose against Netanyahu in recent weeks also constantly complain about being beaten up by the police, it's been through the media all the time. Now, do they get beaten less, equally or more hard than the chareidim? Guess it depends on who you ask.

My personal experience - and I look DL head to toes, not chareidi - a cop stopped me for a random traffic check. I stopped the car neatly at the side of the road, several meters away from him. He came running at my car and kicked it and yelled at me "are you trying to run me over??!!" He was super unfriendly and threatening but eventually let me go. On a different occasion, during a reading of the megillah on Purim in Hebron, a scuffle between some drunk guys broke out and as I was trying to get away from it, a cop who came from the other direction gave me a push. I saw it coming so I didn't fall down but managed to half evade it.
Why? Dunno. They just are like that.
Though, fairness sake, during another traffic control, when I had my car crammed full of citrus tree saplings which I had bought, the cops were friendly and cracked jokes.
Overall, you never know what you get. Best to stay out of their way as far as possible.
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gamanit




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Oct 15 2020, 12:16 pm
iyar wrote:
Israel is our home. True, we lost our rights of ownership. If G-d forbid I lost my home and was thrown out I know I'd always miss my house. Wherever I went I'd always remember the rooms where I put my kids to sleep at night, the place they threw down their knapsacks when they got home, the floor that was covered with their toys and their fingerprints on the walls, the stove where I cooked our Shabbos meals, the tree in my yard, my comfortable bed, the shelves where we kept our sefarim and the table we sat around. If someone kindly said I couldn't regain actual ownership but I could come and stay a while I'd jump at the chance. Wouldn't you?


I love your example. Of course we all miss our own home. Given the opportunity to rent the home you used to own not everyone would be interested. It feels wrong and not the way it should be. It's easier to be a stranger in a strange land than being a stranger in your own home. At least in a strange land you don't see constant painful reminders of how it's supposed to be.
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amother




Wheat
 

Post  Thu, Oct 15 2020, 3:52 pm
All the Americans talking about brutality against Chassidim here in Israel, as if they know what they are talking about from thousands of miles away (or even from a brief visit here), are being ridiculous.

I'm Charedi living here in Israel and I've never witnessed anything of the sort. And I live in Sanhedria which has a lot of Israeli Yerushalmi Chassidish families.

If anything, the chassidim are actually known to get special treatment. They seem to kind of have some sort of block vote or clout to get their way.

We had a real reason to go away for Rosh Hashana, yet we didn't do it because we were scared of getting fined. Motzei Rosh Hashahana I saw buses and buses of Chassidim leaving the city and no one stopped them. Same with the shuls during Yamim Noraim and Sukkos.

So please don't talk about harassment and whatnot when you have no idea what you're talking about.
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Ruchel




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Oct 15 2020, 3:57 pm
I've not seen cops, but my father saw. I will spare you.

That said I've had more insults both in BB/Meash, and secular areas, than anywhere else
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Oct 15 2020, 4:10 pm
Blessing1 wrote:
I see the hostility towards chassidim and yeshivish/litvish black hatters every time we visit. I'm always surprised how mean the police are. Maybe they have no choice and they need to be more tough? But they're definitely mean and not nice. They don't think twice about using violence towards chassidim and frum jews. My father was once pushed and shoved wildly in Meron for no reason. Literally out of the blue. They wanted them to move faster in a congested area so they just pushed them instead of asking them to walk faster.
Again, one anecdote does not make something country wide. PLEASE, stop!!!!! You do not live here. You are not experiencing what you THINK is happening all over. And other posters have come and said that what you are saying is just not so. Why do you think you know better from afar than those that live here and are also charedi (not myself but the other posters who have replied to your assumptions)>?
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Blessing1




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Oct 15 2020, 4:26 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Again, one anecdote does not make something country wide. PLEASE, stop!!!!! You do not live here. You are not experiencing what you THINK is happening all over. And other posters have come and said that what you are saying is just not so. Why do you think you know better from afar than those that live here and are also charedi (not myself but the other posters who have replied to your assumptions)>?


How do you explain all the videos of police brutality attacking chareidim since the start of covid? How do you explain little kids being fined or arrested? Isn't this police brutality?? Videos don't lie. Police have always been brutal to chareidim that don't show up to the army. Police have always been brutal to chareidim in Meah Shearim. By every charaidi protest in Israel the police respond with attacks and brutality. By secular protests the police don't do anything.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Oct 15 2020, 4:31 pm
Blessing1 wrote:
How do you explain all the videos of police brutality attacking chareidim since the start of covid? How do you explain little kids being fined or arrested? Isn't this police brutality?? Videos don't lie. By every charaidi protest in Israel the police respond with attacks and brutality. By secular protests the police don't do anything.
You are seeing things from a one sided outsider's charedi glasses.
Again, people on this thread have mentioned that life here is not the way you are making it out to be.
Yes, protests by charedim make the news. And yes, there is disobedience. So what can a police officer do if there is disobedience? Answer that yourself. Have you never seen footage of such protests? It gets ugly fast, but from both sides.
That being said, have you never seen footage of a protest not by charedim? I feel like you have not as you would not be saying what you are saying.

Im just not sure why you keep on going on and on and on and on about this when you so obviously do not live here and have no real idea of what you are saying.
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amother




Lavender
 

Post  Thu, Oct 15 2020, 4:31 pm
Blessing1 wrote:
How do you explain all the videos of police brutality attacking chareidim since the start of covid? How do you explain little kids being fined or arrested? Isn't this police brutality?? Videos don't lie. By every charaidi protest in Israel the police respond with attacks and brutality. By secular protests the police don't do anything.


Again: chareidim in Israel are subject to the law, like any citizens...

Police does not always treat people with velvet gloves when they break the law.

In israel, some chareidim organise or participate in demonstrations. It might happen to them that they get roughed up by the police as a consequence. That's not because the police is anti-chareidi, that's because it happens in any country that demonstrations devolve into violence and that demonstrators get roughed up... this would be the case for anti-netanyahu demonstrations or for ethopian demonstrations and also for chareidi demonstrations.

Why do you feel that chareidim should be allowed to disturb public order (blocking roads, etc.) or to break the law without facing consquences?

Do you feel that chareidm should be above the law?
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Oct 15 2020, 4:32 pm
Also, violence is used when the protesters do not listen to the police.
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Geulanow




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Oct 15 2020, 4:34 pm
This thread has veered off topic from " Where do Jews go next" to "Are Israeli police abusive to charedim". Maybe another thread should be started on that topic.
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Success10




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Oct 15 2020, 4:37 pm
Blessing1 wrote:
How do you explain all the videos of police brutality attacking chareidim since the start of covid? How do you explain little kids being fined or arrested? Isn't this police brutality?? Videos don't lie. Police have always been brutal to chareidim that don't show up to the army. Police have always been brutal to chareidim in Meah Shearim. By every charaidi protest in Israel the police respond with attacks and brutality. By secular protests the police don't do anything.


Can you post each example and we'll maybe talk you through what actually happened? There are unfortunate incidents, like the young lady who had her mask down and was given a fine and she burst out sobbing (and the police did not give the fine in the end).

Chareidim will "protest" the draft by blocking traffic, sitting in the road and not allowing people through. Women who need to give birth, elderly people who need medication, kallahs trying to arrive at their own weddings. Often other fellow chareidim are being inconvenienced because of them. The police ask them to move and they don't. How should the police get them to move, tickle them with feathers? And then they only turn on the camera when the fists start flying and you see videos of "innocent" chareidim being abused, nebach. I should put "chariedim" in quotes as well. Their behavior does not represent the values of our community at all.
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amother




Hotpink
 

Post  Thu, Oct 15 2020, 4:38 pm
Blessing1 wrote:
How do you explain all the videos of police brutality attacking chareidim since the start of covid? How do you explain little kids being fined or arrested? Isn't this police brutality?? Videos don't lie. Police have always been brutal to chareidim that don't show up to the army. Police have always been brutal to chareidim in Meah Shearim. By every charaidi protest in Israel the police respond with attacks and brutality. By secular protests the police don't do anything.


People have explained this to you time and again, and you just don't want to listen. If someone is adamant they are a victim, then nothing you say will convince them otherwise.

Just to take a look at your first example. How do I explain little kids being fined or arrested? Well, it's certainly not police brutality against charedim! What kind of extreme twisted paranoia is this?

No little kids have been arrested, for starters. I mean really, where do you get this stuff from? As for little kids being fined - preteens were fined, not little kids, and so what? It has zero to do with charedim. For the millionth time, my own dd was fined when out with her friends, and she was wearing jeans IIRC. The police definitely did not mistake her for a charedi girl! And I know of lots of other parents whose kids were fined, and none of them are charedim.

The difference is that none of these parents went on national media whining that the police are targeting little girls in jeans/ secular kids/DL kids/mizrachim/Moroccans/ take your pick.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Oct 15 2020, 4:45 pm
amother [ Lavender ] wrote:
I strongly dislike the interrogations by security at the airport.
I'm not chassidish...I always thought it was personally anti-me...Why do you think the hostility is specially directed against chassidim?


The first time I was verbally screened by El Al I was taken aback. I'd never been to Israel before, and I thought the whole process was really weird.

Then I thought for a minute - what does a terrorist look like? Don't you think a terrorist would probably look like the person you would LEAST expect?

Remember that case many years ago, about the young Irish woman who got pregnant with her Palestinian boyfriend's baby? She was 8 months pregnant, and wanted to fly home to be with her mom for the delivery. He packed her suitcase for her, and installed a bomb with a timer on it. Her "boyfriend" had no problem blowing up her and his unborn child in the process.

This poor girl had NO idea. She wasn't acting suspicious, but the fact that she was traveling, pregnant, without the father of the baby, was enough to make them take an extra look. They double screened her luggage, and found the bomb.

My 2yo DD was upset that they took away her stuffed animal to x-ray it. I had to explain to her that there were sneaky bad guys who might try to hide bad stuff in a nice animal. The screeners were EXTREMELY nice through the whole process, and went out of the way to not upset DD any more than needed for the x-ray.

Compared to the way I've been treated by the TSA in America, this was a walk in the park. Getting patted down in front of a bunch of men, having a woman run her hands through your sheitel, pat down your tichel, insist you take off your snood in front of everyone - there's no way to win. You can ask for a private room, but they will take their own sweet time getting to you while your plane takes off.

I've even seen TSA agents insist on inspecting a sleeping baby's diaper to make sure that there is nothing being smuggled in there. Then there are the times when someone is in a wheelchair, and they want the person to get up and walk through the metal detector - even if they have no legs, or they are 90 years old! "It's the rules, you can't take a wheelchair through. We have to call security now." G-d help you if you have a metal plate or rod anywhere in your body.

Don't even get me started on how they treat people with Autism. Mad

I'll take the El Al interrogation any day of the week.
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shevi82




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Oct 15 2020, 5:07 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Also, violence is used when the protesters do not listen to the police.

This.
I am charedi as is my whole family in Israel. we were never attacked. True the police sometimes loose it, but they don't go around beating up charedim. When there is a demonstration blocking the road they will some times go overboard with the beating, but it is not innocent people walking in the street on shabbos afternoon, they are blocking the road or screaming Nazi.
During covid most charedim follow the rules, but some do not (why? I have no clue, the only mitzva written Meod-ונשמרתם מאוד is not followed.. but that is a different subject) there have been some incidents of shuls or weddings not following the laws, police went in. But charedim are not scared of the police and walk around freely.
Like I wrote earlier it is a zechus to live here, living in EY is one of the only mitzvas one can do with your whole body. If you have Love of the land you should come and you will make it.
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rikkik




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Oct 15 2020, 5:55 pm
Grew up in NY and the first time in my life that I ever felt that I was hated was when I went to E"Y for Seminary. And the ones hating me were my fellow Jews.
It was a very painful feeling.
My friend was slapped in the face when we went to visit Yad Vashem, and we were using a Charedi tour guide who would guide us through the exhibit from a charedi perspective (since we are not represented there at all). The guards were upset abt that bec they felt it was anti-zionist.
Didn't want to let us in. When we stood there waiting for our guide, he smacked my friend across the face.
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amother




Hotpink
 

Post  Fri, Oct 16 2020, 1:16 am
rikkik wrote:
Grew up in NY and the first time in my life that I ever felt that I was hated was when I went to E"Y for Seminary. And the ones hating me were my fellow Jews.
It was a very painful feeling.
My friend was slapped in the face when we went to visit Yad Vashem, and we were using a Charedi tour guide who would guide us through the exhibit from a charedi perspective (since we are not represented there at all). The guards were upset abt that bec they felt it was anti-zionist.
Didn't want to let us in. When we stood there waiting for our guide, he smacked my friend across the face.


I find that shocking. You should have filed a complaint with police. It was probably caught on camera too.

Is it against yad vashem policy to let outside tour guides in? Still doesn't excuse the violence of course.

There are psychos in every society, still doesn't mean that this isolated incident was reflective or normative or accepted.
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amother




Powderblue
 

Post  Fri, Oct 16 2020, 1:26 am
Blessing1 wrote:
How do you explain all the videos of police brutality attacking chareidim since the start of covid? How do you explain little kids being fined or arrested? Isn't this police brutality?? Videos don't lie. Police have always been brutal to chareidim that don't show up to the army. Police have always been brutal to chareidim in Meah Shearim. By every charaidi protest in Israel the police respond with attacks and brutality. By secular protests the police don't do anything.


Let me guess, you get your news from charedi news sites.

Those outlets report almost exclusively on the charedi world, so you get a totally distorted view of things. For months, the (almost entirely) secular protesters outside the Prime Minister's house have complained about rough treatment by the police. And they have videos to prove it.

And the police have been ticketing people at beaches and clubs for not keeping the corona rules. If you only see religious people getting arrested, you think they're the only ones. They're not.

Living in a bubble makes people self-absorbed, and increases the likelihood of feeling like a victim.
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shevi82




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Oct 16 2020, 2:33 am
rikkik wrote:
Grew up in NY and the first time in my life that I ever felt that I was hated was when I went to E"Y for Seminary. And the ones hating me were my fellow Jews.
It was a very painful feeling.
My friend was slapped in the face when we went to visit Yad Vashem, and we were using a Charedi tour guide who would guide us through the exhibit from a charedi perspective (since we are not represented there at all). The guards were upset abt that bec they felt it was anti-zionist.
Didn't want to let us in. When we stood there waiting for our guide, he smacked my friend across the face.

I am sorry for your experience. Do not know why you felt that in EY in general. I live hear most of my life and feel so different.
It is true that the charedim are not loved by the media and there are issues with politics. But it is so not true that you feel it in the street, just the opposite. We were in Tel Aviv a few months ago and three times people stopped my husband to ask him random questions. one guy just turns to my husband Harav....ma shlomcha? my dh is not a Rabbi, just dressed with a hat a jacket. A young woman in the makolet who was full of tattoos and barely wearing clothing started asking us about Hafrashas challa, a guy at a falafel stand saw us pass and called out "ma mvarchim al falafel?" The people are thirsty to hear divrei hashem, most are not anti charedi. What they see in the media makes it seem like that, but when they come up face to you they want to hear and learn.
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amother




Seafoam
 

Post  Fri, Oct 16 2020, 5:05 am
Blessing1 wrote:
She's not playing victim, she's right. There has always been an undercurrent of hate against chassidish in Israel. Chassidim can feel it and the rest deny it or say they deserve it.


I came to Israel as a liberal student, 2 decades ago. According to my mode of dress back then, it was probably hard to categorize me as religious. Everyone was friendly to me then. After I got married, my husband and I made choices that moved us more to the right until we were firmly in the charedi camp. Our dress and way of life is chassidish. And I have said that I can understand what it's like to be black in America.

I live in a mixed neighborhood, a rarity in Israel, and I get looks of revulsion just walking down the street. In Corona times, people cross the street or make a wide birth around us, muttering insulting comments, even though we are wearing masks properly.

I was a bleeding heart liberal when I first got here. Believed that we are all brothers. Trust me, I was looking for exactly the opposite of what I received. It's a very helpless feeling, to see someone shudder in revulsion when they look at you and your big, beautiful charedi family. I would never believe it can happen, except it happens to me all the time.

Israel is our home, but its galus and far from the perfect solution.
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