S/O of "horrified" thread - sending kids away pp

amother

Cerise

Thu, Oct 22 2020, 4:29 pm

amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:

Yep I’m trying to figure if she thinks a romantic vacation needs to be some scandalous trip?

No, I don't. Although according to imamother it has to be. There have been countless threads here about women cancelling vacation when they have been nidda, as though one can't enjoy oneself otherwise.

Anyway, mentioning chassidim was an example. It really doesnt matter if they vacation solo or not. My point was LOTS of people do not go on vacation solo when they have toddlers. It's not at all necessary in order to have a happy marriage, although some people here seem to have been brainwashed by modern Western romantic notions to think that it is.

And if you have a one or two year old and you feel you must get away, a night should be enough (barring extreme circumstances). It shouldn't be the norm that couples NEED a week away from their babies in order to maintain their relationship.

lilies

Thu, Oct 22 2020, 4:37 pm

QueensMama wrote:

I won’t decide for you what traumas are unavoidable. If you feel that having your toddler home post birth would harm you emotionally you need to do what you need to do.

That said, I don’t know anyone who sends away their toddler for two weeks when they have a baby. And yet they all lived to tell the tale.

Are we talking about me now?

I think I made my point, and it's about not seeing why people are horrified at other's choices regarding their physical, and mental health.
Most people I know limit it to one week and I think that's a perfect medium between mother's health and child's emotional state but again, it needs to be an individual decision.

To be clear, it's not about living to tell the tale, it's about a woman putting her health first and the child ultimately benefitting from that decision. Moms should not be choosing to survive, but to thrive.
I'm sure you're aware of the adverse situations many Moms find themselves in post-birth such as depression, anxiety and general overwhelmedness. If this is something she can help herself with, I say, go ahead.

It's ironic how so many on this thread would be the first to 'teach these clueless women' how to put their own needs first on all the other threads, and in the place they do so best, they get bashed and people are simply horrified. Very Happy

amother

Lawngreen

Thu, Oct 22 2020, 4:47 pm

Keym. Now I understand where you are coming from. On the flip side, you don't know how much trauma you would experience if you were home, and watched your father dying. Don't you think it was better for you to have a stable place to stay, with your needs taken care of. Your mom would not have the headspace of taking care of her young charges while caring for her sick dying husband and her own emotional well being. Don't you think, she did what she felt was best for her kids at that time?
You are only imagining the security & familiarity you would have, had you stayed home, but you would not, because your home was probably not the calm, predictable state anymore, as you have known it!
Believe me, my kids were all traumatized, while I was running to a kid in the hospital, even if they weren't farmed out for long term.
They never knew if mom will take them off the bus or neighbor, even if I tried being home for their buses. My toddler who was home & sent to different people daily, so I can go to hospital, expressed how she doesn't want a new mommy every day.
My child close in age to patient, was lonely because he didn't have his playmate & anxious for his sib. Didn't let me go to hospital.
My patient was angry why I couldn't be in hospital longer.

keym

Thu, Oct 22 2020, 4:52 pm

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

I hear, but no.
Btw, we didn't stay out the whole time. More like 3 weeks, back home. 6 weeks, back home.

But still, we all were begging for normalcy. Or as much normalcy as possible.
And going for two weeks to Tante Rochel, then one week at Tante Esti did not allow us the illusion of normalcy.
We were guests constantly. Always having to be polite, not having our laundry smell like ours, crammed into a crowded noisy bedroom with cousins that we would get into fights with.

banana123

Thu, Oct 22 2020, 4:58 pm

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

Keym already answered you, but I want to add another point.

Even if as an adult, a person understands that the alternative may have been worse, it doesn't erase the childhood trauma, which was caused by the person as a child feeling like s/he had no place to be, was rejected, abandoned, left on their own.

You can't counter childhood feelings and trauma with the logical thinking of an adult. It just doesn't work - not when the person is a child, and not after the person has grown up.

amother

Puce

Thu, Oct 22 2020, 5:00 pm

lilies wrote:

It is not up to anyone to decide which traumas are unavoidable to others. Recuperating post-birth is for a mother's health, in the same way surgery is for a child's health. Or dentist.
Why is mom's health dispensable?

Avoidable means there are other options. There are other options for allowing a mother to recuperate (like she can go to a kimpturen home or move in with her mother, or get a babysitter or cleaning lady).

When someone is faced with a necessary surgery or diagnosed with an illness, it is what it is. There were no other options offered to the family, and none were offered.

In the first scenario a person has bechira. In the second scenario, Hashem decided for them.

amother

Puce

Thu, Oct 22 2020, 5:01 pm

lilies wrote:

If a parent goes to sleep at night, are they causing their child to feel rejected and abandoned as a result of their choice?
It's about the information being given vs a child left trying to make sense of things alone. When things don't make sense, a child will believe a negative message about themselves (Nobody cares about me, I don't matter) because if they trust and love their parents and nobody has taught them about grey areas in thinking, then there must be something wrong with me.

These comparisons keep getting more and more illogical.

amother

Lawngreen

Thu, Oct 22 2020, 5:11 pm

keym wrote:

What I am trying to tell you is that your house wasn't a normal sitch either anymore. If your mom was at your father's bedside around the clock, you wouldn't have that routine, you were used to anymore. Maybe your father when he was so sick, couldn't tolerate the noise, mess of the kids & needed his quiet.

keym

Thu, Oct 22 2020, 5:22 pm

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

Like someone else said, trauma is an emotional response. It can't be logicked away.
Of course my situation wasn't normal.
And no, I'm not angry at my parents or family.
They tried their best.
But that doesn't erase the deep and long lasting effect on me to this day.

So I'm challenging this expectation that EVERYONE needs to send their kids away.
Really? Everyone?
Everyone will get dehabilitating PPD if they just hire help, but keep the kids home?
Everyone's kids do wonderfully?

Let's think outside the box. Let's think creatively so that Mom's recover and yet the kids don't suffer.
I think I'm done.

QueensMama

Thu, Oct 22 2020, 5:27 pm

lilies wrote:

"False Dilemma/False Dichotomy
This fallacy has a few other names: “black-and-white fallacy,” “either-or fallacy,” “false dichotomy,” and “bifurcation fallacy.” This line of reasoning fails by limiting the options to two when there are in fact more options to choose from. Sometimes the choices are between one thing, the other thing, or both things together (they don’t exclude each other). Sometimes there is a whole range of options, three, four, five, or a hundred and forty-five. However it may happen, the false dichotomy fallacy errs by oversimplifying the range of options.

Dilemma-based arguments are only fallacious when, in fact, there are more than the stated options. It’s not a fallacy however if there really are only two options. For example, “either Led Zeppelin is the greatest band of all time, or they are not.” That’s a true dilemma, since there really are only two options there: A or non-A. It would be fallacious however to say, “There are only two kinds of people in the world: people who love Led Zeppelin, and people who hate music.” Some people are indifferent about that music. Some sort of like it, or sort of dislike it, but don’t have strong feelings either way."

The choice is not moms health vs childs health. It's how can we achieve both without hurting either one.

lilies

Thu, Oct 22 2020, 5:27 pm

amother [ Puce ] wrote:

Some people have a hard time going to a kimpturen home, some can't move in with a mother...Even if the mother can that's her decision to make not yours. Don't you see that?

This might be another thing for some people that is what is is. It may not be as dire as a severe illness, but it definitely is a small-scale recuperation post surgery.

This conversation isn't really progressing, and I think there isn't much more I have to add.
Enjoy!

lilies

Thu, Oct 22 2020, 5:37 pm

QueensMama wrote:

As mentioned before, I think I've clearly stated my point.
No it's not. It's a potential risk for trauma, which need not happen and if it did it can be repaired without any negative long-term damage. This risk is something mothers choose to take in order to help themselves heal and be the best mother they can be.

There may be many options to choose from and nobody is forced to choose between one extreme or the others, but it's not something to be horrified with if a mother makes a choice that is best for herself and her family. No matter what imamother's general consensus is.
Honestly, this is getting tiring.
My posts were for intended for those who would appreciate another perspective.