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Reality




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 26 2020, 1:50 pm
amother [ Silver ] wrote:
Jumping to an emotionally charged argument is the decoy conversation


What is the emotionally charged conversation?

That scientific experiments are done without consent? On vulnerable populations?

That government takes away rights and freedoms for our own "benefit" and does not relinquish power at the appropriate time?

That money corrupts people and government actions?

Please study history!!
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bunchagirlies




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 26 2020, 1:50 pm
One thing I find ironic, is that all anti-vaxxers seem to have this strong belief that anyone that vaccinated their children are blindly following the government without looking into it. They truly believe that anyone that does research will definitely stop vaccinating. Ummm, I, personally, have done many many hours of intensive research, and I still choose to vaccinate my children!! Surprise surprise!! And I have been in touch will many people who have done the same!
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amother
Silver


 

Post Mon, Oct 26 2020, 1:53 pm
bunchagirlies wrote:
One thing I find ironic, is that all anti-vaxxers seem to have this strong belief that anyone that vaccinated their children are blindly following the government without looking into it. They truly believe that anyone that does research will definitely stop vaccinating. Ummm, I, personally, have done many many hours of intensive research, and I still choose to vaccinate my children!! Surprise surprise!! And I have been in touch will many people who have done the same!

They ultimately believe that if we just woke up we’d see this magical truth. This waking up only happens once we become an anti vaxer. Interesting how that logic works out.
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amother
Emerald


 

Post Mon, Oct 26 2020, 1:56 pm
bunchagirlies wrote:
One thing I find ironic, is that all anti-vaxxers seem to have this strong belief that anyone that vaccinated their children are blindly following the government without looking into it. They truly believe that anyone that does research will definitely stop vaccinating. Ummm, I, personally, have done many many hours of intensive research, and I still choose to vaccinate my children!! Surprise surprise!! And I have been in touch will many people who have done the same!

Actually it seems that many anti vaxxers have not done research. Many of them aren’t really knowledgeable in what real evidence based research is. I remember reading a story about someone who didn’t vaccinate and then started - I forget the details of what caused the change of heart (hopefully nothing too tragic) - the parents said they were so confused with all the information out there that they didn’t vaccinate because of all the dangers they were hearing about. But they didn’t do any research. And it sounds like there are many like them. It’s very sad. Many anti vaxxers are not even really anti, they’re just uneducated.
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LovesHashem




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 26 2020, 1:57 pm
There's SO many reasons for the higher rate of these different disorders

1. The internet - more knowledge, increased awareness
2. Less mental health stigma and more people working in the feild.
3. EVERYONE takes their kids to be evaluated for the smallest issues. Who got their 2 or 3 year old diagnosed back then?
4. Over diagnosis. Any hyperactive kid is ADHD, anyone struggling with anger is ODD. I have friends who have six diagnoses attached to their name but you wouldn't even know because the doctors just labeled them. Like one kid can have ADHD, learning disabilities, sensory integration disorder, anxiety, ODD when they were just a regular kid who was a little hyperactive and was sensitive. 40 years ago they wouldn't have been labeled with ANY of this.
5. Because of 1 and 2 people in their 30's, 40's and older are finding that they have a diagnosis later on in life.
6. The food we eat is filled with chemicals and hormones as well. Fish, Meat, Poultry, and Dairy are filled with hormones and come from overcrowded cages rampant with disease pumped with chemicals and hormones to make them fat and not die and cheap food.
7. Sugar intake as well.
8. Screentime. Electronic devices is connected to the rise in anxiety, depression, suicide, ADHD, and much much more.

I'm sure there's more reasons. Blaming these rising statistics on vaccines is idiotic. Our way of life has changed so much for the worse.
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amother
Green


 

Post Mon, Oct 26 2020, 1:59 pm
amother [ Silver ] wrote:
No need to yell. Vaccines undergo rigorous testing before it is administered. Yes, most children aren’t sick and vaccines try to keep it that way. Years ago, our grandparents lost siblings to polio, measles etc, today we don’t have that. And those substances have not been proven to cause injuries and death. Or at least show me some data to support that assertion. Again, there are rare, rare side effects to vaccines but they are minimal. Just like if you needed cancer treatment or any surgery there will be side effects.


Please let me know which vaccines have undergone a double-blind, (inert) placebo-controlled study before being approved, recommended and ultimately, mandated
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 26 2020, 2:00 pm
amother [ Emerald ] wrote:
Just curious.. theoretically if what you are saying is correct (I don’t believe it is), do you think ADHD or high functioning autism is worse than polio for example?


No.

But I'd rather my child get measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox than ADHD or high functioning autism.

Wouldn't you?
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 26 2020, 2:03 pm
amother [ Emerald ] wrote:
Actually it seems that many anti vaxxers have not done research. Many of them aren’t really knowledgeable in what real evidence based research is. I remember reading a story about someone who didn’t vaccinate and then started - I forget the details of what caused the change of heart (hopefully nothing too tragic) - the parents said they were so confused with all the information out there that they didn’t vaccinate because of all the dangers they were hearing about. But they didn’t do any research. And it sounds like there are many like them. It’s very sad. Many anti vaxxers are not even really anti, they’re just uneducated.


FALSE!

Most anti-vaxxers are WHITE COLLEGE EDUCATED. Higer income.

NewsWeek Headline:

White, College-Educated, Wealthier Parents Less Likely to Vaccinate Their Children, Texas Study Reveals

https://www.newsweek.com/white.....91188

I personally have spent years and long hours researching vaccine safety.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 26 2020, 2:09 pm
LovesHashem wrote:
There's SO many reasons for the higher rate of these different disorders

1. The internet - more knowledge, increased awareness
2. Less mental health stigma and more people working in the feild.
3. EVERYONE takes their kids to be evaluated for the smallest issues. Who got their 2 or 3 year old diagnosed back then?
4. Over diagnosis. Any hyperactive kid is ADHD, anyone struggling with anger is ODD. I have friends who have six diagnoses attached to their name but you wouldn't even know because the doctors just labeled them. Like one kid can have ADHD, learning disabilities, sensory integration disorder, anxiety, ODD when they were just a regular kid who was a little hyperactive and was sensitive. 40 years ago they wouldn't have been labeled with ANY of this.
5. Because of 1 and 2 people in their 30's, 40's and older are finding that they have a diagnosis later on in life.
6. The food we eat is filled with chemicals and hormones as well. Fish, Meat, Poultry, and Dairy are filled with hormones and come from overcrowded cages rampant with disease pumped with chemicals and hormones to make them fat and not die and cheap food.
7. Sugar intake as well.
8. Screentime. Electronic devices is connected to the rise in anxiety, depression, suicide, ADHD, and much much more.

I'm sure there's more reasons. Blaming these rising statistics on vaccines is idiotic. Our way of life has changed so much for the worse.


There is no other substance, except Vaccines, that have the following:

1. A Vaccine Court that has awarded over $4 BILLION awards for death and injury caused by vaccines.

2. Vaccines have Inserts stating association with Autism, Seizures, Diabetes, SIDS and Death!

3. Thousands of parents reporting an IMMEDIATE adverse reaction to vaccines - high fever, seizures
after which the child regressed into chronic autism, allergies, seizures, IBS, etc. There are videos and medical records showing the child was 100% healthy, typical before the adverse vaccine reaction!

We don't have any of the above for sugar, other food additives chemicals, screen time, sugar etc.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 26 2020, 2:10 pm
LovesHashem wrote:
There's SO many reasons for the higher rate of these different disorders

1. The internet - more knowledge, increased awareness
2. Less mental health stigma and more people working in the feild.
3. EVERYONE takes their kids to be evaluated for the smallest issues. Who got their 2 or 3 year old diagnosed back then?
4. Over diagnosis. Any hyperactive kid is ADHD, anyone struggling with anger is ODD. I have friends who have six diagnoses attached to their name but you wouldn't even know because the doctors just labeled them. Like one kid can have ADHD, learning disabilities, sensory integration disorder, anxiety, ODD when they were just a regular kid who was a little hyperactive and was sensitive. 40 years ago they wouldn't have been labeled with ANY of this.
5. Because of 1 and 2 people in their 30's, 40's and older are finding that they have a diagnosis later on in life.
6. The food we eat is filled with chemicals and hormones as well. Fish, Meat, Poultry, and Dairy are filled with hormones and come from overcrowded cages rampant with disease pumped with chemicals and hormones to make them fat and not die and cheap food.
7. Sugar intake as well.
8. Screentime. Electronic devices is connected to the rise in anxiety, depression, suicide, ADHD, and much much more.

I'm sure there's more reasons. Blaming these rising statistics on vaccines is idiotic. Our way of life has changed so much for the worse.


I addressed over-diagnosis of ASD. In 1970 NON VERBAL AUTISM was around 1:5,000 to 1:10,000
Today NON VERBAL AUTISM is about 1:150.

How do you explain that???? I am comparing apples to apples.
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amother
Ginger


 

Post Mon, Oct 26 2020, 2:31 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
The 50% figure includes obesity, which I agree should not be included.

But how many families do you know with a child with allergies, learning disability, mental illness, ADHD?


I really don't know many. ADHD families have ADHD kids. Allergies - major or just small things? I really don't know any kids with mental illness and anxious kids is due to parenting. Learning disability - I'm not sure but not many.
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nchr




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 26 2020, 2:39 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
I addressed over-diagnosis of ASD. In 1970 NON VERBAL AUTISM was around 1:5,000 to 1:10,000
Today NON VERBAL AUTISM is about 1:150.

How do you explain that???? I am comparing apples to apples.


I'm responding to much of what you wrote, including a question addressed to me re vaxxed v unvaxxed.

Many individuals who would have been diagnosed as non verbal autism were deemed [crazy], or hidden away in closets/institutions without diagnoses. Also, many parents seek out an Autism diagnosis illegitimately because it opens the doors for other services.

I think parental age at the time of conception, reliance upon technology, and overall parenting has definitely contributed to a lot of the problems we see in children in regard to their behavior and emotional/mental states, as well as physical health. Couple that with our diet and boom. There is also relatively strong evidence to link the increase in asthma and allergies to our sterile environments whereas there is no evidence to link it to vaccines.

In regard to vaxxed v unvaxxed study - I personally think a study like that is fine in a country like America, where health care and vaccinations have improved the outcomes or eliminated the likelihood of catching a vaccine preventable illness. However, you need a completely randomized study and it is possible that many unvaxxed children would share other lifestyle aspects that may make the study unreliable. Therefore, you'd need to really get children whose parents want them vaccinated and deny them vaccines for life for the study, which poses ethical concerns. In countries where vaccinations are not mandatory or where health is documented really well, vaccines are not linked to the conditions you've mentioned.

We do not know what causes Autism, but we do not it is not vaccines and I think that no matter how much someone wants to cure Autism, it is not going to happen through deny vaccines. Also, vaccines are not falliable. We have pulled vaccines when we've noticed a problem or stopped recommending them based on a risk/benefit assessment. Why do you think they cannot be touched?

I support vaccination and I believe they have saved more lives than any other medical advance; however, I do believe you should have a right to vaccinate or not because we live in a free country and I value those freedoms.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 26 2020, 3:21 pm
amother [ Silver ] wrote:
Foods and vaccines undergo a very different regulatory process. You cannot compare.


Because food additives are studied independently from the fact that we are exposed to a combination of carcinogens and other toxic substances that each one by itself is safe but together they are harmful so I don't think that we can entirely isolate one entity, even a vaccine, and say that it gave someone cancer or any other neurological or auto-immune disease.
The current Covid vaccine is certainly being studied although I don't know how ethical it is to study it on children who are too young to consent. At a certain point, there would have to be children who took the vaccine for the trials but I certainly wouldn't volunteer my grandchildren and it's not because I view the vaccine manufacturer as a bunch of greedy rogues who knowingly harm people in order to make money. I just don't like the "cocooning" idea where children are given a vaccine that they really don't benefit from in order to protect someone else. I am not sure that even works.
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amother
OP


 

Post Mon, Oct 26 2020, 4:40 pm
I'm chiming back in here. Surprised to see so many comments- but maybe I shouldn't be surprised because this is evidently a very heated issue.
A few things:
There are other imamothers here who can organize their thoughts and make their points much more eloquently than I can. I am grateful for them and their ability to write in a way that's not defensive, not hysterical, just factual and clear. I am trying to figure out how to say what I'm trying to say. I did not post here to fight- I have gotten into way more than enough arguments with people on this site who are unwilling to change their position. For example, last night I said that I am familiar with numerous stories of children who have had bad reactions to vaccines (way more than 1 in a million as someone stated- I don't know one million people and I know quite a few people who have had adverse reactions to vaccines). Someone posted a story about a person who had a bad reaction to measles as a result of not getting vaccines. I posted a story out of South Korea which stated that 25 more people died of the flu vaccine they administered for free. Immediately another imamother said well, that's not a study. Neither was the original measles story that the first person posted, but the minute that I say that I have evidence to the contrary, and post an article just as she did, people are ready and willing to bite my head off. I'm not interested and I'm not in the mood to go back and forth- I've done that too much on other threads back and forth and getting nowhere for no reason- my energy is important and I'm done with that (which is why I posted in emotional health- hoping the people who would respond here would be a little more gentle, but it's the same bickering.)
Now, the reason why I posted that first video, is as a person said somewhere upthread- that I am afraid of the blatant government overreach and lack of regard for human life and censoring of the truth. The point is to open up a window for anyone who cares to to do go figure out what's happening behind the scenes, not for me to sit here stressing myself out fighting with people and proving my case.
This post was not a vax post- yes, the rapid way that they are developing and pushing this vax is concerning to me. Let's not be blind here- pharm drugs and vaxs do have potential side effects- you can even read about them in the drug and vaccine inserts- the companies themselves admit them. So I don't know why people feel the need to come here and advocate for them as perfectly safe and effective when even the companies themselves admit that it's not so. I am fully vaccinated. I have vaccinated my kids. I am not anti-vax. However, I have seen enough things that I think it needs to be a topic of open conversation and not just shutting up those who don't agree with everything all these big organizations tell us to do. This is exactly what Robert Kennedy says- not anti-vax but in a democratic society we have a right to ask questions and have satisfactory answers and our safety ensured.
I have been promised that anti-anxiety drugs were the be all end all- and they were not and actually caused worse symptoms and side effects. That took me on a long journey discovering what health truly is and where it lies, and it wasn't in a pill. That's why I'm very passionate about this topic- sitting in our homes for 7 months with masks on testing like crazy in a hypervigilant state is not the way out of here. I really believe there is more to the story and that it's important to think critically. It actually terrifies me the way people are getting away with what they are making us do. It's mind-boggling and should make anyone living in this free, democratic society ask some important questions. I know there are some people here that will care to learn, which they need to do themselves, I don't have all day to post. And some people who just care to fight and fight and disagree with everything I say anyway vehemently. I don't care to do that. As I said I don't have time or energy to go back and forth fighting- if you are firm in your position, that's great and more power to you. I wish everyone well, and may we all have clarity. May Hashem protect all of us.
Bowing out.
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amother
Natural


 

Post Mon, Oct 26 2020, 5:05 pm
Reality wrote:
Why has the conversation devolved into a typical anti-vax thread? Did you bother to watch the video?

My takeaway was let's discuss government overreach. And does the government always look out for the best interests of it's people? And government sponsored experiments without informed consent.

We can talk about any of those issues and never bring up vaccines. In the video, she mentions one vaccine in passing. It is NOT the focus of the 30+ minute interview!!

The conversation devolved because a poster dismissed the interview by saying the woman being interviewed is an anti-vaxer. This is an old tactic seen on almost every thread in the "vaccinations" forum to veer from the actual topic of concern and dismiss the person out of hand. "S/he's an antivaxxer" effectively ends any intellectual discussion.
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amother
Natural


 

Post Mon, Oct 26 2020, 5:13 pm
amother [ Green ] wrote:
Please let me know which vaccines have undergone a double-blind, (inert) placebo-controlled study before being approved, recommended and ultimately, mandated

AFAIK, only Gardasil was tested against a saline placebo. Some of the results, especially for autoimmune conditions were bad in both the aluminum adjuvant placebo and in the vaccine, but not in the saline. So they combined the two placebos in the results to appear like the vaccine is no different than the placebo. I posted about it here on imamother, but people didn't seem concerned at all.

All other vaccines which have been tested against a placebo used either an old version of the shot as a placebo or a different shot altogether.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 26 2020, 9:44 pm
amother [ Natural ] wrote:
AFAIK, only Gardasil was tested against a saline placebo. Some of the results, especially for autoimmune conditions were bad in both the aluminum adjuvant placebo and in the vaccine, but not in the saline. So they combined the two placebos in the results to appear like the vaccine is no different than the placebo. I posted about it here on imamother, but people didn't seem concerned at all.

All other vaccines which have been tested against a placebo used either an old version of the shot as a placebo or a different shot altogether.


Exactly! Vaccines are NOT tested against Placebos which is ANTI-SCIENCE. This is to COVER UP
the harm that vaccines cause.

More chronically sick population equals more billions $$$ for pharmaceutical industry!
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Oct 26 2020, 9:49 pm
amother [ Natural ] wrote:
AFAIK, only Gardasil was tested against a saline placebo. Some of the results, especially for autoimmune conditions were bad in both the aluminum adjuvant placebo and in the vaccine, but not in the saline. So they combined the two placebos in the results to appear like the vaccine is no different than the placebo. I posted about it here on imamother, but people didn't seem concerned at all.

All other vaccines which have been tested against a placebo used either an old version of the shot as a placebo or a different shot altogether.


A lot of us did sign the petition that we don't want Gardasil to be mandatory. Even those us who use vaccines are not in love with every one of them.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 27 2020, 12:33 am
bananas4bananas wrote:
Agreed. Same reason why there hasn't been conclusive studies done on how alcohol affects a fetus during pregnancy


Is anybody FORCING people to drink alcohol while pregnant?

Government is FORCING injecting HEALTHY babies/children with vaccines that are proven to
cause death and permanent injury.

Without any Vax vs UnVax studies proving that vaccines are safer than being unvaccinated!
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Chickensoupprof




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 27 2020, 4:29 am
#BestBubby wrote:
There is no other substance, except Vaccines, that have the following:

1. A Vaccine Court that has awarded over $4 BILLION awards for death and injury caused by vaccines.

2. Vaccines have Inserts stating association with Autism, Seizures, Diabetes, SIDS and Death!

3. Thousands of parents reporting an IMMEDIATE adverse reaction to vaccines - high fever, seizures
after which the child regressed into chronic autism, allergies, seizures, IBS, etc. There are videos and medical records showing the child was 100% healthy, typical before the adverse vaccine reaction!

We don't have any of the above for sugar, other food additives chemicals, screen time, sugar etc.



It's so sad that the root of this whole myth is a RETRACTED article from the Lancet . These researches frauded the whole research on this. And there has been lots of researches since which proves there is NO LINK between autism and vaccines. It's the same that one wrote down in a big scientific journal that chickens are speaking French in the night, and there has been camera's set up in chicken coops, poultry farms, and no one heard a chicken speak French anymore ever since but still there are people who say ''No I won't have a chicken coop because I don't like the prestigious language they speak in the night''.
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