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Curious to hear why you think kids can't learn on zoom
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amother




Apricot
 

Post  Mon, Oct 26 2020, 11:04 am
amother [ Apricot ] wrote:
I use to teach in a center that had kids on virtual school for high school.
Some excelled some didn’t
Some could do their assignments on their own others needed help, some constant help and motivation.
Virtual school is not like zoom, though.
There is no live teacher during the lesson.
If a child wanted to he could contact the teacher for clarification on assignments or help.

I’m not sure why distance learning could not use the virtual school model that is already set up at least for 6-12 grade, english studies.


BTW- students work at their own pace
And when they graduate they have a regular state diploma. And in the states that have this it’s free.
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notshanarishona




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Oct 26 2020, 11:27 am
So many reasons ...
(1) not every child has a quiet atmosphere
(2) the teacher can't show anything to students in the same way to explain
(3) Kids can't work together which is a huge part of learning
(4) you can't really use manipulatives
(5) their is no give and take, teachers can't see students work
(6) Many kids physically can't sit in front of a computer for so many hours
(7) as a teacher it's very hard to see if the kids are focused and keep everyone in
It can work for some but doesn't work for most.
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amother




Periwinkle
 

Post  Mon, Oct 26 2020, 11:29 am
anonymrs wrote:
The relationship between teacher and students is non-existent via zoom. There's little motivation for lots of kids without that aspect.

I feel pretty good about the relationship I have built with my students this year. I have gotten a lot of positive feedback from parents, too, saying their kids enjoy it.
I wonder how some of the schools have been doing the online teaching. The kids in my school aren't staring a screen for 6 hours straight. We start off with a morning meeting, do a 35 minute whole group lesson, then I meet with a small group for 30 minutes while the others do asynchronous work. Etc, throughout the day. The students meet with me in small groups for each subject a couple times a week, not every day. So they get a lot of down time where they can work at their own pace and an extended break in the middle of the day (my break is not that long, lol).
We can read chorally (they are provided with textbooks and guided reading books that they can follow along without staring at a screen). I had students who started off as almost non readers but are coming along nicely now. For math, the students have some physical manipulatives as well as access to virtual ones they can move around (I.e. place value models), workbooks, etc. Our various programs have a digital format, so I can project the workbook page and write on it, or model how to play a math game. By now, the kids are adept at opening new tabs and toggling back and forth if they need to open an assignment online while I read the directions, or open a resource online (like a word wall that I posted to help with their spelling, or whatever).
We are finishing up a writing piece that they have done the steps of the writing process, doing the first draft by hand, reading aloud to me to get feedback. They will publish it by typing and illustrating it on a digital program they were already using even before remote school started. They did just as good a job as if we worked on it in person, imo.
Obviously not as good as being in school but far from a disaster.
I think that many of the frum schools where it is a disaster aren't being given or using all the possibilities. I was talking to a neighbor who teaches in a frum school, and yes, in her school, it's basically lecturing while kids listen. With maybe a few "discussions" thrown in there. No wonder she/the students hate it.
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Oct 26 2020, 12:15 pm
amother [ Aubergine ] wrote:
You can make it work if you are motivated enough and the kids are and seems warranted/has a purpose.
When in person learning is an option this really pales by comparison.

I can want to make it work from here until tomorrow, but my wanting it doesn’t make it so. One can want a blind person to see, but wanting doesn’t make it happen. Sometimes, things just don’t work for everyone. How is a teacher supposed to help my child with handwriting? How can he/she walk around the classroom and see how everyone is understanding (or not understanding) the work? How can individual attention be given?
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Oct 26 2020, 12:19 pm
little neshamala wrote:
My son is doing beautifully on zoom. His school is very organized...they take real attendance, the teachers were all trained how to use zoom...you need to raise your hand to ask or answer a question, the teacher unmutes you to answer, or unmutes the class for a give and take...its working quite nicely. For all subjects

Have you asked all the parents in the school, or grade, or even just the class, if they feel the same way?
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amother




Navy
 

Post  Mon, Oct 26 2020, 12:34 pm
keym wrote:
I would not appreciate my kids being forced to leave the camera on.
That's an excessive and unfair pressure to me to make sure that my house, or at least my child's space is clean enough and free from a newly toilet trained brother running around in his birthday suit..


I can understand that. It's not my personal decision to force kids to turn on their cameras, it's the school's decision. My own kids' schools have the same requirement. It's impossible to teach twenty black squares on a screen. It's a totally different dynamic.

You should know that there are useful settings that solve the issue of people seeing your house or other family members. You can place the pupil against any background. We can see your child as though he is in outer space or at the beach instead of in a messy kitchen.

Most of my pupils just connect with their own background though, and it's very personal to be let in their private sphere, to see what their homes look like and for them to see mine. For better and for worse.
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amother




Puce
 

Post  Mon, Oct 26 2020, 12:45 pm
My ds is not good at focusing on the phone or a screen conversation.
He has a Seit in the classroom.
Was supposed to have Seit over Zoom. Obviously that didn’t work.
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amother




Periwinkle
 

Post  Mon, Oct 26 2020, 12:45 pm
Ema of 4 wrote:
I can want to make it work from here until tomorrow, but my wanting it doesn’t make it so. One can want a blind person to see, but wanting doesn’t make it happen. Sometimes, things just don’t work for everyone. How is a teacher supposed to help my child with handwriting? How can he/she walk around the classroom and see how everyone is understanding (or not understanding) the work? How can individual attention be given?

Extra monitor to see all the kids while projecting slides. Go Guardian to keep tabs on what they are doing online. Ok, handwriting is not able to be taught or monitored. But, tbh, it hasn't been a focus since Common Core took over. (Though the pendulum is starting to swing back and some states are just now adding to their state standards.)
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amother




Navy
 

Post  Mon, Oct 26 2020, 12:46 pm
notshanarishona wrote:
So many reasons ...
(1) not every child has a quiet atmosphere this is a huge problem. Here you see the gap between the more privileged pupils, who have their own computer and their own quiet room, and those who do not. Huge issue. A child with many siblings and a noisy family is also at a disadvantage here, no denying it.
(2) the teacher can't show anything to students in the same way to explain true the teacher can't write on the board, but there are MANY very creative ways to explain things on zoom, some even better than in the classroom. You just share the screen and show what you need.
(3) Kids can't work together which is a huge part of learning sure they can, that's what breakout rooms are for
(4) you can't really use manipulatives What manipulatives do you mean? If you mean things like stickers, a warm word, it's harder on zoom but still possible. Grades are still a 'manipulative' for the older kids. But I agree everything seems more distant and not as effective
(5) their is no give and take, teachers can't see students work sure they can. Why not? It takes me 5-10 minutes to create a Google form for my pupils to complete, and they are a pleasure to mark
(6) Many kids physically can't sit in front of a computer for so many hours HUGE issue, I agree, too much screen time depletes your soul
(7) as a teacher it's very hard to see if the kids are focused and keep everyone in I agree, the weaker pupils tend to zone out even if you can see them on camera, some of them are simultaneously doing something else onscreen
It can work for some but doesn't work for most. I think it works best for older pupils, not young elementary, and for those who weren't struggling to begin with
[color=Font Color] [/color][color=Font Color] [/color][color=Font Color] [/color]
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Oct 26 2020, 12:47 pm
amother [ Navy ] wrote:
I can understand that. It's not my personal decision to force kids to turn on their cameras, it's the school's decision. My own kids' schools have the same requirement. It's impossible to teach twenty black squares on a screen. It's a totally different dynamic.

You should know that there are useful settings that solve the issue of people seeing your house or other family members. You can place the pupil against any background. We can see your child as though he is in outer space or at the beach instead of in a messy kitchen.

Most of my pupils just connect with their own background though, and it's very personal to be let in their private sphere, to see what their homes look like and for them to see mine. For better and for worse.

My kids schools didn’t allow backgrounds, because then students might be playing around with the settings during class.
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amother




Puce
 

Post  Mon, Oct 26 2020, 12:47 pm
Comparing it to Chabad kids learning remotely is so different.
They do not have the class sizes we regularly do.
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Oct 26 2020, 12:50 pm
amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:
Extra monitor to see all the kids while projecting slides. Go Guardian to keep tabs on what they are doing online. Ok, handwriting is not able to be taught or monitored. But, tbh, it hasn't been a focus since Common Core took over. (Though the pendulum is starting to swing back and some states are just now adding to their state standards.)

An extra monitor doesn’t solve the problem of not being able to see the teacher and the work at the same time.
I don’t know where you are, but my son, in school in Nassau county, has had handwriting lessons every year. Even if it is not a focus, a teacher walking around the classroom while students are working will be better able to see children who need help with handwriting. A teacher on zoom only sees the finished product.
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amother




Navy
 

Post  Mon, Oct 26 2020, 12:53 pm
Ema of 4 wrote:
My kids schools didn’t allow backgrounds, because then students might be playing around with the settings during class.


They should have just allowed one standard background then. For pupils who for whatever reason can't show the background of their home. Not everyone has a private, tidy corner to zoom from.
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amother




Azure
 

Post  Mon, Oct 26 2020, 1:04 pm
I think the hard part is that teachers cant zone in to fully see whos not understanding. I had a pre 1a child with LD on zoom last year when she got lost it took a bit to get the teacher's attention . At the same time the teachers brought in a lot of the things they loved into a zoom model, And still did 1on 1 time. and they definitely did learn even if they didn't get to everything. I had a middle schooler who hated it she says she learns better in the classroom but her morah was amazing had kids reading the poskim and gave partners each week to work with daylie after class.one of my outher children math teacher did one one one slots to make sure they got everything at the end of the year. Don't get me wrong I hate zoom I am not a teacher I can't do older grades and I struggled with it. But there are teachers who can adopt to different ways of teaching better I definitely had my share of teachers I was not impressed with . My kids always went on and on time unless we had a computer issue. I was just not an option to skip you go to school you do this. Some classes where givin to the kids a videos not live so they did that when they got to it .
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Oct 26 2020, 1:06 pm
amother [ Navy ] wrote:
[color=Font Color] [/color][color=Font Color] [/color][color=Font Color] [/color]

Having quiet space isn’t about privilege. My children have their own bedrooms, but none of them were allowed to do zoom in their bedrooms. There is only so much public space in a house that can be conducive to individual learning.
Many kids need to SEE things to understand. Sharing the screen makes both images smaller, and again, less conducive to understanding.
Breakout rooms are great, but there is no teacher there to make sure the work gets done in a timely manner. There is also really no way to give a consequence/penalty effectively on zoom, so nothing really happens if the work doesn’t get done. Breakout rooms also often mean more work for the parents, because they need to be the adult in the room.
You can’t give out physical prizes, but manipulative are things teachers and students work with in class to help teach/understand a lesson.
Teachers tend to keep everyone on mute most of the time, and just unmute the person who is speaking. A teacher on zoom can see that a child is working, but they can’t see their work. Yes, they can see and grade work once it’s handed in, but that’s not the same thing, and it also takes away from being able to work individually with a child who needs help while others are working.
The last two I agree with both you and notshanarishona
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chanchy123




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Oct 26 2020, 1:06 pm
I have four school-aged kids. My younger kids are doing well in distance learning because I am available to sit with them. One child has had serious learning challenges in school and is now really shining with distance learning, because there is less pressure, less distraction - or at least different distraction, and we are there for her to show her we believe in her. Most of her work is not zoom, but assignments, some of the assignments are based off short videos.
I feel like with this child it’s more like homeschooling.
With my teens it’s more complicated, one has a lot of school work and a lot of zoom. She plays computer games during class, it seems like she’s learning but she claims it’s not at all the same quality as in school learning. It’s harder to ask questions and hard for the teacher to know if the students really understand. And their math teacher has not at all figured out how to teach calculus over zoom. My son is whole other Kettle of fish.
All my kids miss the social aspect of school very much and claim it’s hard and distracting to get into a learning atmosphere.
So they are learning, it’s not a complete waste of time, but for the most part it is not at the pace or scope that is done in school.
Just want to add that I work from home. I think the fact that I wake up in the morning and am hyper focused on my work puts the entire home into a more serious mood that is conducive to learning.


Last edited by chanchy123 on Mon, Oct 26 2020, 1:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother




Navy
 

Post  Mon, Oct 26 2020, 1:07 pm
Hashem_Yaazor wrote:


It's also either not collaborative (all kids muted) the same way school is, or if it's not muted, way too much background noise and you can't filter to hone in on the person you want to hear the same way you can in person.


I ask everyone to mute, and then to unmute themselves if they want to speak/give an answer. This works well in upper grades; it could be a mess with younger kids.
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Ema of 4




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Oct 26 2020, 1:11 pm
amother [ Navy ] wrote:
They should have just allowed one standard background then. For pupils who for whatever reason can't show the background of their home. Not everyone has a private, tidy corner to zoom from.

Either they should or they shouldn’t, but they don’t do that. What schools should have done or should not have done Is subjective.
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amother




Periwinkle
 

Post  Mon, Oct 26 2020, 1:14 pm
Ema of 4 wrote:
An extra monitor doesn’t solve the problem of not being able to see the teacher and the work at the same time.
I don’t know where you are, but my son, in school in Nassau county, has had handwriting lessons every year. Even if it is not a focus, a teacher walking around the classroom while students are working will be better able to see children who need help with handwriting. A teacher on zoom only sees the finished product.

Not in NY. Handwriting has not been officially taught since CC, except on the "sly" when teachers sneak it in. Currently not a required standard. With extra monitors and Go Guardian I can see perfect well what the kids are working on. My small groups have 5-8 kids at a time and are based on skill level. So they get indivualized attention then. I don't mind staying on an extra 10 or 15 minutes at the end of the day to meet individually with a student if they specifically need one on one for something.
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amother




Navy
 

Post  Mon, Oct 26 2020, 1:14 pm
Ema of 4 wrote:
Having quiet space isn’t about privilege. My children have their own bedrooms, but none of them were allowed to do zoom in their bedrooms. There is only so much public space in a house that can be conducive to individual learning.
Many kids need to SEE things to understand. Sharing the screen makes both images smaller, and again, less conducive to understanding.
Breakout rooms are great, but there is no teacher there to make sure the work gets done in a timely manner. There is also really no way to give a consequence/penalty effectively on zoom, so nothing really happens if the work doesn’t get done. Breakout rooms also often mean more work for the parents, because they need to be the adult in the room.
You can’t give out physical prizes, but manipulative are things teachers and students work with in class to help teach/understand a lesson.
Teachers tend to keep everyone on mute most of the time, and just unmute the person who is speaking. A teacher on zoom can see that a child is working, but they can’t see their work. Yes, they can see and grade work once it’s handed in, but that’s not the same thing, and it also takes away from being able to work individually with a child who needs help while others are working.
The last two I agree with both you and notshanarishona


I don't understand why they were not allowed to do zoom in their bedrooms. I can understand not allowing to do zoom in bed, but if they have a desk in their room, what's the problem? That's the strangest school policy I have ever heard. It's much better for them to be in a quiet room than a busy living room.

As for sharing the screen - you enlarge it, it takes up the whole screen, and if you want you can move the images of the zoom participants entirely off the screen.
Breakout rooms - the teacher should be visiting each breakout room and give a time limit. I agree that like most of zoom, this works better with older grades, definitely not with ages where the parent needs to be 'the adult in the room'.
I don't keep everyone on mute unless it's a very noisy, undisciplined class. I much prefer letting them unmute themselves and comment throughout the lesson. Then again, I teach in Israel and things are more casual that way.
I do think lower grades should be as ASAP priority to return to school, because it's extremely difficult for them to learn on zoom. Grade six and up can learn on zoom, it's a tool you need to get used to, and since we will need to be using it for the next few months in Israel, we may as well make the best of it.
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