Indoctrination, Control and its Aftermath

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crust

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 12:10 pm

I once read an interesting thing that the Chofetz Chaim said about the Cantonists.

He said that we see a very interesting phenomena with these children that were indoctrinated since they were 12.

While they were in the army, they got up evey day, did their duties and were highly productive.

For 25 years they did that non stop.

After 25 years, when they came back, they suddenly collapsed. They did not lead regular lives. They were completely paralyzed.

Why?
Why couldn't they continue being powerhouses?
Why couldn't they go on to open businesses or be productive in any other way?

The Chofetz Chaim says that when a child does something because he is forced to do it then he will do it.

As long as the child has that terrible fear that he will be beaten, yelled at, be abandoned, he will comply because its the only way out of the punishment.

But, as soon as the child is not forced to do it anymore, he will have no internal or moral compass to show him what he should be doing. *

The Chofetz Chaim says that with Chinuch, if you want your chinuch to stay with your child you have to make them do things not because they fear you.

If your children are operating from a place of fear, once you're gone they will have no moral compass to guide them.

* The child also loses his identity.

His identity till now was, I follow what I'm told. If not I'll be abandoned shot starved beaten yelled at etc.

Now, without anyone screaming down his back, he has no idea why he would or wouldn't do something.
(I didn't include above because I didn't hear this from the Chofetz Chaim. Its my own observation.)

Ok, really this is only one aspect of Indoctrination.
There's so much more to it. I am touching the tip of the iceberg.

I invite you to share anything on this topic.

Last edited by crust on Wed, Nov 04 2020, 2:52 pm; edited 3 times in total

amother

Maroon

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 12:36 pm

My son tells me that I made a terrible decision sending him to the yeshiva katana that we chose. He says they brainwashed him.

He is not (currently) frum.

While the house was fairly relaxed, I think he felt that he could not question things at school.

They were NOT mean or unreasonable.

I don't know what we could have done differently, but I think about this often.

I just pray that Hashem will draw him back to Himself in His own way and timing.

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

nchr

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 1:07 pm

Is this supposed to be a PSA or may I honestly question you for the sake of intellectual pursuit, using points I believe to be true?

amother

Floralwhite

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 1:08 pm

I'm not sure if indoctrination alone necessarily has to do with fear.

amother

Cerulean

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 1:21 pm

The real question is are we raising our children or are we training them to obey?

Children that are raised in a healthy home may look similar to those that are trained like circus animals, but the real question is why they are behaving like that.

I hope I'm coming across coherent.

crust

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 1:33 pm

nchr wrote:

Is this supposed to be a PSA or may I honestly question you for the sake of intellectual pursuit, using points I believe to be true?

Totally not a PSA.
It's a discussion.

(Maybe not completely intellectual though because I'm human and therefore I have an intellect and feelings also.)

crust

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 1:34 pm

amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:

I'm not following

GoodEnough

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 1:37 pm

amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:

Really important question that you raise!

ShishKabob

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 1:38 pm

Crust, this makes a lot of sense. I think the bottom line is the no moral compass.
When we raise our kids, we teach them that this is the right thing to do because the Torah tells us to do it.
It is still their choice if they want to choose to do the right thing or not, and we strongly encourage them to do it. To some the argument will be that you are indoctrinating them with a very conscious conscience, they may have an issue with that as well. Smile

Not all morals are created equal. Our morals are guided and outlined in the Torah. That's why we are so lucky to have a very definite set of morals Boruch Hashem!!

zaq

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 1:46 pm

WADR, I don't think it's a matter of age or of fear. Offenders who were imprisoned for many years and people who were rank-and-file soldiers (draft or enlisted) for many years often find it difficult if not impossible to adjust to living in the outside world where they have to fend for themselves and make decisions. All they had to do was follow orders. On the outside, they suddenly have to find work, find a place to live, manage money, buy clothes, buy and prepare food--all functions that either never did or hadn't had to do for years.

Which has nothing to do with the idea that a child must be educated with love, not fear. It should be self-evident that obedience rooted in love is superior to obedience rooted in fear. If fear is no longer a factor, there's obviously no longer any incentive to obey. But what happens if love is no longer a factor?

nchr

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 1:51 pm

crust wrote:

Totally not a PSA.
It's a discussion.

(Maybe not completely intellectual though because I'm human and therefore I have an intellect and feelings also.)

1. Cantonists removed children from their home and had no intention of "raising" them. By default, that would require some type of indoctrination. The purpose, as far as I understand, was not to take children and create productive individuals by instilling a proper work ethic.

2. Chinuch, on the other hand, is with the goal of creating something long term, forever. What that something is is dependent upon the parents and obviously not everything is a healthy suggestion, but for the sake of this conversation let's say the goal of some parents is to raise functional individuals, a legacy/extension of you, expand klal yisroel, successful individuals, etc. Some a mother who grooms her child to be a dayan or doctor has made it clear to her child that being a dayan or a doctor is a long term goal, not a temporary behavior that is expected to be engaged in for 25 years.

3. Much of what we are forced to do doesn't stop once we reach adulthood or marry. Maybe I won't need to clean my mother's dishes any longer, but I cannot just go and drop the 20 years of chinuch and run away because I'm part of a family and a community, and I am a Jewish individual who has a Torah I must follow. Military service has an expiration date, but Yiddishkeit, serving Hashem does not. Regardless of what "tactics" you use, it's not like they will just stop because the service doesn't end after 25 years.

4. We are forced to do many things. That's just the reality of life. We experience that as adults. Why is it taboo to experience that as a child?

5. A moral compass is developed based upon what we observe. If parents want their children to say thank you, they need to model that behavior. A punishment for not saying thank you is a reinforcer, but it would not exclude the child from learning the behavior if the parents find it to be important.

6. Children are supposed to have some level of fear. We have that in regard to Hashem. People are afraid of the police. When I wear a seat belt I do so because it is the law, but I have internalized that. If someone has not yet, what is wrong with wearing it because they are afraid not to?

7. Yes, identity is complicated. We lose our identity because we are somewhat shaped and molded by our society. However, this is the reality in any insular community. Part of my identity is decided by that of those around me. That doesn't mean my identity is non existent or less true.

8. If we believe Torah to be true, then it doesn't matter if someone has stopped screaming because you're required to comply with the truth or, well, someone is going to scream at you after 120. And if you are okay with that, then you have the adult choice to make in that regard.

Obviously reality is more reasonable an balanced, but I don't think fear, force, coercion, etc. are in and of themselves the problem. I've also heard this complex applying to childhood overachievers, which is why I suppose it is better to fit in and be unremarkable than the alernative.

ShishKabob

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 1:53 pm

zaq wrote:

You make a great point.
However, please explain the yehi ratzon that we say each day by the amidah that says: vsham naavadcha byirah keemay oilam uchishanim kadmoniyos.

crust

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 1:56 pm

Quote:

If fear is no longer a factor, there's obviously no longer any incentive to obey. But what happens if love is no longer a factor?

Love and fear don't operate the same way.

Therfore, its impossible to make someone obey with love.

Love is not an incentive.
If it is an incentive then that's control in a different way. Still control.

Zehava

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 1:56 pm

You’re all missing the point
Yes Ofcourse a child who was trained to obey out of fear for their life and brainwashed to do as they’re told will never develop a sense of identity. Ofcourse a child who is raised with healthy attachment will want to emulate their parents and role models.
But that isn’t why we aren’t indoctrinating them with fear and guilt.
We aren’t doing it because it’s wrong.
Our children are human beings with a tzelem elokim. Just because they are smaller and weaker than us and depend on us for their needs does not mean we have the right to treat them as we wish. Our children don’t belong to us. They belong to themselves. Our job is teach them, guide them, love and protect them, until they are old enough to do it themselves.

dankbar

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:04 pm

A very strict teacher, will have a quiet class, but the minute she steps out the door, there will be chaos.
Is this teacher successful in her class? Only as long as she is there and students are afraid to move.
What happens the next year when they have a softer teacher, will they continue to be quiet in class? No! How come they didn't internalize the message of being quiet in class from previous teacher? Because they only did it out of fear, instead of teacher teaching them that working quietly works to their benefit to absorb material, be able to concentrate on work.

nchr

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:09 pm

dankbar wrote:

Kids don't need to be quiet when a teacher is out of class. When kids disrupt class it's the parents lack of chinuch more so than anything else. I don't care what the schools ability to maintain a structured environment is, my child has no excuse to misbehave in a school building, or any building. That's normal not strict or fear.

keym

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:13 pm

nchr wrote:

Why is it the parents "fault" so much as the kids lack of ability to control himself.

In general, I get really turned off when parents take any credit for a well behaved or "well turned out" child.
The credit belongs to the child. And ultimately the "blame" belongs to the child also.

Mothers

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:13 pm

I think an additional factor is not allowing children to make enough choices. Studies show (for example) that children who are in highly structured pre-school programs, where they are continually instructed where to go, what to do (sit, stand, look at this etc.) don’t develop the independent executive functioning skills that developed through planning and decision-making. They don’t get to see the consequences of their choices and/or actions, and they don’t get to learn from their successes and/or errors.

Regimenting actions and restricting choices is very limiting. This is the case in the moral realm - same as any other.

Obviously, there are some errors, which can be fatal (either physically or spiritually) and we must do all we can to protect children from those - but there are other errors, which are neutral and/or minor, which can provide valuable learning experiences. Ein chacham k’bar nisayon. We all learn best from experience. Limiting children’s choices and experiences limits their eventual development as independent, thinking adults, who can make mature, rational decisions and take responsibility for their choices.

dankbar

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:19 pm

Your kids are not angels/good/tzaddikim because they listen to everything that mommy says, what happens when you don't say, do they know right from wrong on their own,do things of their own initiative, because they want to do it, and not out of fear? Do they have the strength to make moral decisions on their own once they are out in the world and faced with challenges and dilemas, temptations, peer pressure, when they are adults or teens in yeshiva when mommy is not looking? Think of a kid who is deprived of candy at home, he will grab lots of it when outside! Why? Because now mommy isn't looking. Why couldn't they internalize that junk is not good for their health, if it's a main priority in his home? It's the way it's done. He feels deprived/forced against his will by his parents. What if a child decides in his own he doesn't want junk not to ruin his body, he will be much stronger to fight the temptation & will be able to follow thru on commitment. Similar to a child who experiences an allergic reaction to a food, will know not to touch it, because he felt the consequences on his own.

zaq

Thu, Oct 29 2020, 2:19 pm

ShishKabob wrote:

You make a great point.
However, please explain the yehi ratzon that we say each day by the amidah that says: vsham naavadcha byirah keemay oilam uchishanim kadmoniyos.

Yir'ah in this sense is not the same yir'ah as in "Al tiyra avdi Yaakov" which means 'fear'. Yir'at Shamayim is 'Yir'at kavod' which is more correctly understood as "respectful awe," not fear. the term "G-dfearing" is convenient but not a good translation. OTOH, 'living in respectful awe of G-d' is an awkward mouthful, which is probably why the term G-dfearing was coined.

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