Non-kosher chickens, and other birds

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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions

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Rappel

Wed, Nov 04 2020, 3:23 pm

Hey y'all:)

I'm looking to flesh out my knowledge on this subject so I can ask our Rav intelligent questions on the subject, and I'm finding that a little difficult.

In short: I recently learned that there are breeds of chicken which aren't kosher. The Silkie is definitely one, but there may be others, and I'm trying to figure out what makes them so. There are a few references in the gemara of simanim (a 3-1 toe arrangement, non-predatory nature), but I thought birds go by mesorah, not simanim?

For that matter - chickens are an archaeological latecomer in the culinary world in the land of Israel. How did they come to be in the mesorah at all? What about turkeys -- I know I've asked this before, but I don't remember the answer. Or Muscovy ducks - whom were deemed kosher in the early years of the state, but whose kosher status was later called into question?

I've even come across some people whom say that quail is questionable these days, and that is certainly a biblical bird.

So what are the parameters? Where can I find out more? Anything and everything is helpful, ladies!

Frumme

Wed, Nov 04 2020, 3:50 pm

Regarding quail-- the issue arises from the fact that when explorers came to the "New World" from Europe, they saw a bird that was very similar looking to a bird they knew from home, the quail, so that's what they called it. It turns out that they are different species, one kosher and one not. As long as you can verify the species, then quails and their eggs may be kosher, but since most people aren't knowledgeable enough to differentiate the to, you need a reputable organization to certify the kashrus of quail eggs.

Quick dictionary search for "quail" reveals the following:

Quote:

1. a small, short-tailed Old World game bird resembling a small partridge, typically having brown camouflaged plumage.
2. a small or medium-sized New World game bird, the male of which has distinctive facial markings.

Wish I could help you with the rest of your questions! I myself have always wondered why swans are considered not kosher, when there are references to it in Tanach as being a delicacy, etc....

WitchKitty

Wed, Nov 04 2020, 4:56 pm

The only thing I know is that some chickens are not kosher because they are actually a hybrid. Mesora bird with non- mesora bird...

amother

Sienna

Wed, Nov 04 2020, 5:16 pm

delete

Last edited by amother on Thu, Nov 05 2020, 2:08 pm; edited 2 times in total

FranticFrummie

Wed, Nov 04 2020, 6:03 pm

When Jews first came to America, they absolutely would not eat turkey. Eventually the rabbis got together, studied the bird, and declared it kosher based on simanim.

Still, there are some groups who will not eat turkey, because their ancestors had no mesorah for it.

Sephardim have a type of quail that is kosher, but the California quail that have the cute little top knot feather are not kosher (and are a protected species anyway.)

Some groups will eat goose, and some won't. Some types of geese are kosher, and some types are not.

I'm not sure what the deal is with hybrid chickens, because pretty much every domesticated chicken known today is a hybrid of several other types. The original "wild chicken" is pretty much lost to history. Domesticated turkeys are hybrids, and nothing like their wild cousins, as well.

(Modern cows and sheep are mainly hybrid varieties, too. I think the only hybrid species that are assur are the ones that create sterile offspring, like when you cross a mule and a horse, or a horse and a zebra. By comparison, wolf - dog hybrids are viable, and produce fertile offspring.)

It's all pretty confusing, and I don't have sources or know the fine details. This is definitely something you should ask your rabbi about.

Rappel

Wed, Nov 04 2020, 6:07 pm

Oh, thank you!

Frumme - that makes a lot of sense.

Witchkitty - I did hear that idea, though it's hard for me to reconcile that kosher and non-kosher breeds can make viable offspring - I can't think of another example of that in nature. The hereditary issue also stymies me because there are very few people whom can trace the lineage of their chickens. For example, I heard from someone that their Rav told them not to acquire Marans chickens because of possible past crossing with Silkies (confusing, since they're a natural breed native to France), but I've never yet seen someone question the Kashrut of the standard baladi chicken of Israel, which is often a hodgepodge of whatever was flying around here.

Imasoftov - so goose, or capon, not swan? Hmmmm

amother

Lemon

Wed, Nov 04 2020, 6:42 pm

I know people who fundraised for raising a specific flock of chickens that had Mesorah, with the idea that they would grow it enough to create a line of kosher chickens to that individual market. (The market being people who cared enough to spend $$$$$ on chickens that looked like other chickens).

It didn't do well.

cbsp

Wed, Nov 04 2020, 7:00 pm

Rabbi Loike is the "Bird Rabbi" at the OU.

Here's one of his presentations on the topic:

Kosher Birds: Who Are They?
https://outorah.org/p/7324/

Frumme

Wed, Nov 04 2020, 7:08 pm

Imasoftov-
That's really fascinating! Thanks for spending the time to share Very Happy

it's always interesting (and sad) how much gets lost in translation and over time.

Rappel

Wed, Nov 04 2020, 8:17 pm

cbsp wrote:

Rabbi Loike is the "Bird Rabbi" at the OU.

Here's one of his presentations on the topic:

Kosher Birds: Who Are They?
https://outorah.org/p/7324/

This is perfect! I just wish the sound quality were better. Is there anywhere I can get a transcript of these classes?

alef12

Wed, Nov 04 2020, 8:26 pm

cbsp wrote:

Rabbi Loike is the "Bird Rabbi" at the OU.

Here's one of his presentations on the topic:

Kosher Birds: Who Are They?
https://outorah.org/p/7324/

I was coming here to tell you to talk to Rabbi Loike

I spoke with him before we got our first chickens and found him a wealth of knowledge.

cbsp

Wed, Nov 04 2020, 9:04 pm

Rappel wrote:

This is perfect! I just wish the sound quality were better. Is there anywhere I can get a transcript of these classes?

I pm'ed you

Moonlight

Thu, Nov 05 2020, 4:06 am

Also we have a sefer called Birds of the Torah with illustrations and pictures etc.... I can get you the authors name and number, he will mail you the book if u want. He lives in queens.
I loved to read it when I was a teen

ggdm

Thu, Nov 05 2020, 6:21 am

Nathan Slifkin has a lot of material on this topic. But he is considered controversial in some circles, so I am recommending him not for everybody.

One of the blog posts about the topic of non-kosher chicken: http://www.rationalistjudaism......l?m=1
And if you really really want to go into details, here is a long pdf with all the info: http://www.rationalistjudaism......l?m=1

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