little t's and crosses

ForeverYoung
Guest

Thu, Nov 04 2004, 10:58 am

I shall ask & let you know. Smile

Quote:

and you know the phrase "cross your fingers and hope to ..." ?

never heard of it

Quote:

why do children cross their fingers behind their backs when asked to promise something? is this a jewish thing too?

never thought about it for even a second. I guess, I'll ask.
I don't remember if I did it as a child, but my kids don't do it.

Unless I'm wrong, you only do it when you lie. So if it is a christian thing, this is something embarassing for them.

I know Russian people have this thing: to avoid ain hara (or it's equivalent) they spit 3 times over a shoulder & knock 3 times on the wood.
Spitting is the remnant of their pagan past, wood symbolises the wood of yoshka's cross. When I found out that, it took me a lot of effort to stop Wink

knocking. However, I heard plenty Jewish women say :"pu-pu-pu". I guess, to 'cover up' the spitting 8)

Ozmom

Fri, Nov 05 2004, 1:59 am

oooh I never knew that about the pu pu pu!

anyway about the difference between the cross and cats and dogs that were worshipped etc.
cats and dogs were already existing things that ended up being worshipped (although mind you I never knew that till you told me)
but a cross is something that from the outset represented a 'deity' other than Hashem. From its inception it was avoda Zora whereas the other things you mentioned started off as nuetral.
So thats why we can look at a dog but not at a cross.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Fri, Nov 05 2004, 10:17 am

Quote:

a cross is something that from the outset represented a 'deity' other than Hashem

O'k, a little background on christianity:

we know that that yoshka was executed b/c he was disturbing the peace of the Roman empire. He was apprehended for walking around and talking about messaya coming, which the Romans enterpreted as rebellion. He was setenced to death and exectuted like all crimilas were in that time - hung on a cross to die. Roads were lined with such crosses to teach a lesson. So neither yoshka's punishment nor his cross were unique.
In chrisianity today the cross symbolizes suffering, not a diety. The whole idea of christianity is that people are so sinful that they cannot repent, no matter how hard they try; and that yoshka had suffered, & through his suffering all humankind will be forgiven if they believe in him. (Nice religion for lazy bums, won't you say? - no responsibility. Believe in yoshka & take express to the heavens). Theoretically, christians believe in "if your right cheek was slapped, turn your fleft one for the next slap" (I don't know how it sounds in English). (Theorhetically, though - look at the crusaids)

Now, to have a founder of your religion die as a petty criminal wouldn't go. So the cross was gloryfied, and put on a pedestal. This just underlines the poor beginings of christianity; they were desparate to make themselves sound good & noble. Hence the importance of the cross.

In no way is the cross considered to be a diety. So why do they continually use this symbol everywhere? 1. most of them probably do not even know why. 2. as I mentioned before, salvation is possible by embrasing yoshka who suffered to save the humankind (supposedly). So in the hard times or the time of prayer, they turn to the symbol of suffering, which achieved salvation.

Also, just now I asked my dh's Rabbi about the 't issue. He said that this is not a halachic issue. This is a matter of feelings. Same goes for the teacher who told the kids that t is made like a cross. So follow your feelings. He also said that when Stipler was building yeshiva in Erez Yisroel (not the Vilna Gaon, as I wrote earlyer), he made sure there are no crosses in the window frames, b/c ths is how he felt about them. I guess, the Stipler grew up in Europe.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Fri, Nov 05 2004, 10:26 am

Just had this idea:

Quote:

why do children cross their fingers behind their backs when asked to promise something? is this a jewish thing too?

do you know why we, Jews, say bli neder? B/c only H' knows for sure.
so here we go, when a child is asked to do something that he is not planning or cannot do, but cannot say "no" for some reason, he crosses his fingers in secret.

This is the very Jewish Bli Neder, borrowed!!!
-----------------
A note: in Ukraine & Russia, many goim are 'makpid' on not giving things to each other over a treshhold. It's upposed to bring bad luck. My dh told me that it probably comes from the eruv issue. They saw that the Jews wouldn't pass it to each other - a person had to walk in to take the object!!

There are plenty Jewish minhagim 'adopted' by goim.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Fri, Nov 05 2004, 10:35 am

Just remebered: I hear from Rabbi Reisman from Brooklyn (Mozei Shabbos Navi shiur), who learned the halacha from Rav Pam, that if you find a cross & want to use it (ie - remold & make jewelry), it has to be 'actively botul' by a christian - ie - broken. I'm not an expert on hilhos avoda zara, but felt that I have to say this in case somebody, who red my overview 2 posts ago, will make conlcusions that are halahically incorrect. So if you find a cross, & it's dig & nice, before remolding it into rings, ask a sheila.
This is a pretty complicated issue (remember the shaitel shaila), & do not want responcibility.

Motek

Fri, Nov 05 2004, 11:53 am

I had many teachers who didn't make the plus sign bec. it's a cross, and just drew it like micki showed. My father didn't find this necessary and I made regular plus signs.

I also read some story, years ago, about the Steipler Gaon, something about poles, wires being in a shape of a cross and being bothered by it

crossing fingers, as far as I know, is a Christian thing

lacing fingers together, as far as I know, is not Christian, but there are those who are careful not to do it, will b'n try to find out why

and crosses that are even (not one side longer) are also crosses, like the Red Cross
we were once guests at someone's house and the hostess wore a white apron with a red cross on it
my husband found it very disturbing

I think the expresssion is "cross my heart and hope ..." and yes, that's Christian!

"why do children cross their fingers behind their backs when asked to promise something? is this a jewish thing too?" NO, as you can see in what I found on google:

Quote:

In America crossing your fingers has a special meaning (actually two special meanings.) Let's analyze the first meaning.

"Wishing for Good luck"
We cross our fingers as a sign that we wish for good luck (for ourselves, or for some one else). This phrase is used a lot in movies, the character will say "cross your fingers" before he does something dangerous where he will need a lot of good luck! Students also cross their fingers before tests and most people cross their fingers before doing something important. In general people cross the index finger and the middle finger like this:

"Breaking a promise"
The second meaning (of crossing your fingers) is when you "cross your fingers behind your back." You do this when you say a promise you won't keep (you are lying). You cross your fingers (like the picture), but you put your hand behind your back where no one can see it. Only children do this, but adults still use the expression of "crossing your fingers behind your back." when they have no intention of keeping a promise they make. Or you can tell this to some body you know that probably won't keep a promise ("Are you crossing your fingers behind your back?").

I know that the pu, pu (spitting) is something that Jewish people do to ward off ayin hara. I don't know if it has a good source or not.

the cross is definitely a religious symbol, not just something that symbolizes suffering, and this is why Christians would give Jews an ultimatum - to bow to the cross or die, and thousands of Jews died Crying

chestnut

Fri, Nov 05 2004, 12:07 pm

have to put in my two cents Wink

Quote:

would you say to your child, " to make a little T we make a picture of a cross. that's how a T is made. "

totally unnecessary. but I still don't see anything wrong with making small print t's (even tens of them, and whoever sees it and doesn't understand that a child is practicing writing, explain it to them) or plus signs.

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I guess, the Stipler grew up in Europe.

in Ukraine; and was born in Belarus, if I remember correctly.

Quote:

A note: in Ukraine & Russia, many goim are 'makpid' on not giving things to each other over a treshhold. It's upposed to bring bad luck. My dh told me that it probably comes from the eruv issue. They saw that the Jews wouldn't pass it to each other - a person had to walk in to take the object!!

r u serious? I never even imagined that. that's hillarious! thanks for the info

ForeverYoung
Guest

Fri, Nov 05 2004, 1:59 pm

Motek, thanks for research Smile

ok, so I see crossing fingrers has 2 meanings. the way the kids use it is most definitely is not religious, and is way too close to Bli Neder. I'm sure it came from there, but the christian culture adopted it in its own way.

so the bottom line here is:

al pi halacha there is nothing wrong with T, + or any other symbol that looks like a cross.

As my husband's Rebbi said, some people are sensitive to it, like the Steipler. This is their feeling & their choice and they act accordingly. It looks like chasidim, who were 'born' and lived under tremendeous christian opression (see my post ^), developed intence dislike of the symbol.

Quote:

I know that the pu, pu (spitting) is something that Jewish people do to ward off ayin hara. I don't know if it has a good source or not.

Unless I'm wrong, I never saw a sefardy say that. Which brings me back to the point that this is the Jewish variation of Russia's pagan past. (see my post ^). If somebody has a different source, I'd appreciate.

Good Shabbos, everybody

Ozmom

Sat, Nov 06 2004, 7:04 am

Forever it is representative of what they believe to be a deity, ie it is representative of yoshke and it is prayed to and kissed, therefore it is avoida zora.

as far as the cats and dogs and moons thing, you are right the cross didn't start off being related to yoshke but the difference is, in Rambam it defines than anything that is natural and was not born or grown for avoidazora, such as mountains, animals, trees, (that were not planted , because some were) can be used for our benefit, but any man made objects that were made for avoida zora can't. and crosses are man made, since it started to represent yoshke, then crosses were made for that purpose, post crucifying times.
as far as what we should be teaching our kids re:how to write t's.
Being as I'm Lubavitch and I know the Rebbe had strong feelings on this topic, we teach our kids to either loop it or not write the line all the way through.

Motek

Sun, Nov 07 2004, 6:29 pm

about lacing fingers - the reason not to is because it is "me'orer gevuros" - it arouses the attribute of Severity

here's what it says in the book "Rampart of Fire" a biography about the Steipler Gaon (p. 293-295):

It was hard for him to look at checkered garments, which reminded him of the gentile cross. The fear he had of looking at the forbidden symbols of the other nations of the world started in his earlier years in Europe and never left him his whole life.

Even though he never asked the women in his family to avoid wearing such clothing, they knew how much it disturbed him and avoided wearing it in his presence.

When one of his granddaughters forgot once and came to see him wearing an offending garment, he immediately offered her money to buy something else to replace it.

Once he showed his granddaughters a way to cut cakes without marking off perpendicular lines which formed the shape of a cross.

When the Lederman shul was remodeled and expanded in his last years, he suggested a design for the windows with a diagonal pattern.

Once, when he moved into a new apartment he noticed that the cables coming out a nearby electrical junction box formed a cross. The sight shook him badly. Not wanting to call his family's attention to his stringency, he didn't mention anything at home.

He wrote a letter to the electric company, explaining how it was impossible for him to live under such conditions, and drew a diagram showing how it would be possible to rearrange the offending cables in a way that wouldn't cause his knees to shake so violently. 3 days later, workers from the electric company fixed it.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Sun, Nov 07 2004, 7:49 pm

thanks, Motek, for an interesting quote.

Quote:

The fear he had of looking at the forbidden symbols of the other nations of the world started in his earlier years in Europe and never left him his whole life.
<...> he never asked the women in his family to avoid wearing such clothing

it's just like dh's Rebbi said: chalachically crosses in life are not a problem, it is a matter of each person's feelinings..

As far as lacing hands - what is the source for that?

sarahd

Mon, Jul 04 2005, 2:20 pm

I just saw this thread and found it really interesting. I did not grow up Chassidish, nor did I grow up in Europe, but as a child I was very makpid with my t's and plusses. (Unfortunately, I have grown sloppy in my older years.)

Motek, thanks for the explanation about lacing fingers. Someone told me a few years ago that if you lace your fingers you will be judged at that moment. I didn't exactly believe him, but I broke my habit anyhow. I'm glad to hear what the real reason is for it.