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How insane to live outside a frum community for several yrs?
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LovesHashem




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 6:36 am
Maybe move to the not jewish place like someone said and take it year by year. A 2 year old is old enough to go to a babysitter safety. They are old enough to talk and express when something is off.

But what will you do for your future kids? Or are you planning on saving money, getting ahead in your careers, so when you do have more one can be a stay at home parent?
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amother
Pink


 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 6:39 am
Honestly, it sounds like you would really benefit from living in a welcoming and frum community.

Forget living on the outskirts. There are so many affordable communities with young couples like you who value their children and have dependable options for child care.

There are caring, frum women who warmly take care of babies while the parents are at work. Most couples like you are looking for a very small group with a very responsible woman.

I think you should speak to a rabbi for guidance. Please find a nice frum community to raise your child in.
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amother
Aqua


 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 6:41 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Would it be great for him when he's 3-5?

Yes, it will be.

Quote:
Is he going to lose out on any experiences by not living in a frum community when he's that young? Or are kids too young to remember?

No, he won't lose out. He's not just too young to remember, he's also too young for it to matter. At that stage you're not teaching them about frumkeit, you're teaching them to be mentschen. And for that, having your parents care for him is light years better than sending him to daycare, and the frumness of where he lives is irrelevant - what matters is what happens at home and at your parents' home.

I know many women here don't understand what the big deal is with sending to daycare. I do understand and I fully agree. I applaud you and your DH for your courage in even discussing this.
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amother
Aqua


 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 6:42 am
DVOM wrote:
OK, difference of opinion. I see value in being with a bunch of other orthodox kids, not just grandparents, parents, siblings.

There is value in that, but not at such a young age. The value appears around age 5-6.
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amother
Denim


 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 6:44 am
How are your parents with keeping your rules? Your mom watching your kid for years means she can only feed him kosher. So either that has to somehow work in her house, or in yours when you're not there, including when she takes the kid out.

Also, I would take a step back and really listen to dh. He is expressing the same concerns as you for both options, so you are hearing him as being in the same place as you are, evenly conflicted. But it's very possible that he is weighing these concerns differently than you are, and it's worth taking some extra time to find out.
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amother
Green


 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 8:15 am
It's one thing for grandparents to watch an infant who sleeps a lot of the day and doesn't move independently, and another thing entirely for them to care for an active 3 year old who doesn't nap.

I think OP and her husband (and maybe her parents) are overestimating how much child care they are going to be getting. If your parents can come help out when daycare is closed and you have to work, that's great. But full time for years (and maybe for a second little one) is not necessarily realistic.

And also, our religion is social. Even introverts need the support of a community. They may not need to hang out at the kiddush every week, but having community matters.
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amother
Copper


 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 8:21 am
Maybe its better financially to move to a frum community and stay at home than move twice. Also you cannot relay on daycare by grandparents! Maybe if you work live twice a week
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 8:59 am
OP, are you sure your choice is either grandparents or daycare? There are many childcare options that don't require daycare per se. You can find someone with a nanny to share, or find a mother who is home and looking to watch one child or find someone who is looking to live with you in exchange for cheap(er) childcare.

My kids were in a home daycare for the first 2.5 years of their lives. It was small, run by a grandmotherly woman and really warm and loving.

I personally think that it's better to settle in to a community but this is really a choice that you need to make. After we moved, we convinced my mother to move near us!
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amother
Tangerine


 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 9:18 am
I wouldn't want to move twice
Also this is your first kid what are you going to do when you have a second. Moving to a place where you have a grandparent to watch kid but no Jewish life seems interesting to me. But do what your gut tells you where you and husband will be happy. Also kids like to play with kids in daycare. May get bored with grandparents watching them.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 9:21 am
At some point you will have to put your kids in daycare.

For yourself, I think its better to put down roots in the community you want to live in long term.

Having said that, depending on your personality and the dynamics of the community, you can definitely have a positive impact on the people there. I live in a tiny community, and over the years our community has really benefited from frum families who come to live here, mostly temporarily.
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imaima




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 9:27 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
We just had our 1st kid. We live in a very expensive community that's unsustainable for a family, and we're planning on leaving no matter what. The question is where to go.

We're debating between:

1) moving directly a particular solid frum community that's much more affordable and where we think we'd fit in. (We'd have to stick the kid in day care of some sort. A private nanny isn't financially feasible.)

OR

2) moving to my non-frum hometown until the 1st kid starts kindergarten/1st grade, and then moving to the community in #1. (My parents are willing and able to provide very good child care. However, my hometown has essentially no frum life; just a Chabad that struggles to get a Shabbat minyan.)

We are really uncomfortable with sticking the kid in daycare, and having the grandparents for the care seems much better to us. (I'd love to be a stay at home mom, but financially, it makes the most sense for our family for me to be able to go back to work once my maternity leave is done.)

How insane do you think it'd be for us to live outside a frum community for a few years, if it's in the best interest of the kid not having to be stuck in day care?


After age 2-3 it is the best interest of a child to have frum Jewish friends and daycare. If you parents are so available at all times.
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flowerpower




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 9:32 am
It’s very easy for dh and you to fall hashkafa-wise if you live in a none jewish community for a few years. Although you are introverted you still need access to kosher and shul. I’d suggest option one and making it work.
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amother
Mint


 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 9:35 am
It sounds like you have a hard choice. Of course it's wonderful if your child can be watched by loving family members.
However have you thought through all the practical aspects? You're moving to somewhere where there is no infrastructure or other people for support? What happens if your parents can't do one day-they have an appointment, or they're ill? What arrangements can you work out? Also to undertake to look after a child every day is a major undertaking. It means they can't go out and restricts their life and day. Are you paying them for it? What happens if they turn around and say actually it's too much for them? I know most grandparents are happy to babysit occasionally but not every day. Are they really able to deal with a highly active toddler or child? A baby doesn't need much stimulation, but a child will run circles around them.
Also are their haskafas in line with yours? If your parents are looking after your child each day for so much of the day, they are going to be 'parenting' with you. Are you happy with that? What would you do if they disagree with your parenting approach?
Also job wise-are you going to have to switch jobs to move, and then when you move again?
Moving is major. We're thinking of moving after several years and the thought of packing everything up is massive. When you have a child or two (or more), the amount of 'stuff' you have is so much more. I wouldn't choose to move twice.
I would recommend you discuss this with a rov you both respect and can help you work out the best options for you.
Hatzlacha on this decision.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 9:36 am
Try talking to some Chabad people who have been on shlichus. Ask them how it felt to live so far away from an observant community, what were the pros, the cons, and how did they get support. What did they do about schooling, friendships for their kids, and when did they decide that shlichus was not right for them anymore?


Joke:

The Mars rover has landed.

It reports back that the Chabad family was very warm and welcoming. Very Happy
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amother
Pink


 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 9:44 am
Op is not being practical.
She has a newborn and she’s already talking about putting “the kid” in daycare. Newborn child care will have no effect on how the child will be raised.
Op has to work on becoming intergraded into frum society without patting herself on the shoulder for not being part of the frum community since March and wanting different arrangements than the norm for childcare.
If op is living in an expensive, lavish neighborhood then she should certainly move to another neighborhood she would fit into better.
She can’t be socially distant forever.
Her child will resent that tremendously.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 9:53 am
amother [ Pink ] wrote:
Op is not being practical.
She has a newborn and she’s already talking about putting “the kid” in daycare. Newborn child care will have no effect on how the child will be raised.
Op has to work on becoming intergraded into frum society without patting herself on the shoulder for not being part of the frum community since March and wanting different arrangements than the norm for childcare.
If op is living in an expensive, lavish neighborhood then she should certainly move to another neighborhood she would fit into better.
She can’t be socially distant forever.
Her child will resent that tremendously.


THIS. Even being RWMO in a LWMO community was hard. DD questioned everything around her.

Shani never wears tights!
Sara gets to wear short sleeves!
Chana plays with her cell phone on Shabbos!
Leah's mom wears pants and doesn't cover her hair!

It was a constant struggle to maintain the hashkafa I wanted in the home, when everything around her was telling her that other people were doing stuff, and they were "just fine."

(This is not a general slam on the MO community. There were many fine, frum families there. DD just noticed the girls who she envied, and made an issue of it.)
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Chickensoupprof




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 10:02 am
I tell you, I live in Nijmegen in the Netherlands (look it up on Google Maps ), I'm with the slucha here the only woman with a sheital, there are few shomer shabbos people here who old already (and more leftwing orthodox I'm bit frummer). Mikvah is 1.40 h drive for us to Amsterdam, with no kosher shops, no Jewish schools. The children of the sluchim goes twice a week to Amsterdam for the cheider, the rest of the week they are homeschooled.
My husband lived when he met me in Golders Green, and he enjoys it here, he can take his bike and bike around. Yeah we can't eat out, we can't go to more shuls, there is no Kosher shop. Truth is, we need a mikvah, but the board does not agree (why a mikvah for two women?), and there is no school and no shops we are thinking to go to England on long term however I'm not expecting to have a baby now and you don't put a baby in school already. We choose to live here because when we met I was in uni and my dh loved this place. Amsterdam is way too expensive really.

I totally get your struggle, for me the thing is; I want my children to be able to socialize later, play with other children, and eat there without kashrus questions, that they can go to shabbos parties with each other and everything. As a secular Jew before I became BT I was different because I experienced History class differently when it was about the shoah, I took offense if someone said 'cancer Jew', I was in a quiet white school, there were no Muslims so they needed to pick on me and a few gays. So take pro- and cons list. I totally get the prices it is crazy especially in Jewish neighborhoods that is why I'm really thinking about Antwerp sometimes but I'm not from there... But what do I want in the long term, just to have more jews I can chat with and go to a store and get yoghurt, meat, cookies, bread without making it myself.
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lamplighter




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 10:07 am
I dont understand what the plan is for the next child? Or are you only planning one?

Are you sure your parents will enjoy babysitting for the next x amount of years, especially as both they and the child ages?

What will you do when your parents have an appt or something and can't babysit- without a frum infrastructure you really have no backup options.

Chabad shluchim dont have it easy at all and they have a huge infrastructure of chabad support to make it possible. You are underestimating the need for a frum community.

Heres the thing if you're so convinced that religious education x matter at that age bc what do they know the difference than the same logic can be applied to day care, what do they know the difference. If you firmly believe that children that age are affected by their surroundings and childcare than it goes both ways, a solid frum childcare and community environment is just as important.

To me there are too many unknowns and too many variables that have to be in place for the childcare by Grandparents and in a not frum area to make it worth the gamble of moving and isolation.
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Chickensoupprof




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 10:09 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
THIS. Even being RWMO in a LWMO community was hard. DD questioned everything around her.

Shani never wears tights!
Sara gets to wear short sleeves!
Chana plays with her cell phone on Shabbos!
Leah's mom wears pants and doesn't cover her hair!

It was a constant struggle to maintain the hashkafa I wanted in the home, when everything around her was telling her that other people were doing stuff, and they were "just fine."

(This is not a general slam on the MO community. There were many fine, frum families there. DD just noticed the girls who she envied, and made an issue of it.)


That is in the Amsterdam community also a problem btw... There is the Cheider which is orthodox Chabad sents their kids there, most of the women are wearing sheitels or tichels the one big rule is that you need to be shomer shabbos to apply. However there is also Rosj Pina and Maimonides wher ethe only rule is that you need to be halachic Jewish however most of the kids are not shomer shabbos or keeping kosher. They do wear a kippa sometimes but you see them buying gasser treife snacks from the supermarket. My friend's husband teaches now Yahadut to these children often of very rich parents, they don't know brochos for food, sacharis is not mandatory in the morning etc etc etc...

Problem is, the community is really small and basically, Cheider forbids the students to go to mixed-gender things often organized by and for people who are on the other school (Rosj Pina and Maimonides) but you can't forbid them to mingle because eventually they do... Yeah then I want to go to Edgeware later on where I know there are schools who are on hashkafa and my own progessive liberal views I can indoctrinate my children with at home LOL
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amother
Aqua


 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 11:09 am
Raisin wrote:
At some point you will have to put your kids in daycare.

For yourself, I think its better to put down roots in the community you want to live in long term.

Having said that, depending on your personality and the dynamics of the community, you can definitely have a positive impact on the people there. I live in a tiny community, and over the years our community has really benefited from frum families who come to live here, mostly temporarily.

Not necessarily. Here daycare is under-3s, after that it's proper preschool and fully funded. The youngest we've sent is 2.5, by choice, and we're thinking of not sending our toddler until kindergarten. If ch"v it became literally an issue of either daycare or no food on the table, of course we'd send, but BH we've never been in such a situation and bezras Hashem we will never be.
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