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-> Interesting Discussions
lamplighter
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 Tue, Nov 17 2020, 8:43 am
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Oh and to answer your question, it is not insane but it is very challenging and I do not see childcare by not frum grandparents a reason to put your family through that challenge.
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amother
Pink
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Tue, Nov 17 2020, 8:47 am
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Not insane. Just not really practical or thought out.
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moonstone
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Tue, Nov 17 2020, 8:56 am
| FranticFrummie wrote: | THIS. Even being RWMO in a LWMO community was hard. DD questioned everything around her.
Shani never wears tights!
Sara gets to wear short sleeves!
Chana plays with her cell phone on Shabbos!
Leah's mom wears pants and doesn't cover her hair!
It was a constant struggle to maintain the hashkafa I wanted in the home, when everything around her was telling her that other people were doing stuff, and they were "just fine."
(This is not a general slam on the MO community. There were many fine, frum families there. DD just noticed the girls who she envied, and made an issue of it.) |
FF, I wish you hadn't used this as an example of MO. I've always lived in LWMO communities and have never seen any parent allow their child to be mechalel shabbat, including using cellphones. I don't know what the deal was with your daughters friend, maybe they weren't as religious as you thought, but this is not an accurate representation of Modern Orthodoxy. It's bad enough that a lot of posters here think of us as little more than apikorsim, please don't add to their misconceptions with things that aren't true.
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amother
Papaya
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Tue, Nov 17 2020, 8:58 am
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FWIW, I know of several real life situations where the plan was that a set of grandparents were going to be full time babysitters once their grandchild was in born. What ended up happening in reality was that the grandparents quickly realized that, while they had meant it sincerely, they hadn't fully realized the ramifications and either it was too much, or they didn't like being tied down day in and day out. Some either just said "sorry can't do it" and some said they could do it 1x or 2x a week only. So, I wouldn't plan a whole move just based around the plan of grandparents being babysitters. No way to know in advance if it will really happen.
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number
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Tue, Nov 17 2020, 9:36 am
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can you share a nanny with 1 or 2 other families? then there's just 2 or 3 kids in the group? a good nanny can do a great job caring for those kids, as opposed to an aging grandparent who may struggle to change diapers or keep the kid entertained or whatever.
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funkyfrummom
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Tue, Nov 17 2020, 2:33 pm
I believe having non-frum grandparents provide daily childcare (I got the impression this was full day daycare, because of the parents' work) presents problems that the OP did not mention in her original post.
I actually think THAT is something that OP's rav needs to provide guidance on. I believe there are halachic issues, similar to when employing a non-Jewish or non-SS nanny, that should be an important part of this decision.
Maybe there is a frum community that is similar to OP's #1 choice that is slightly more affordable? What about a younger community that is building itself up? A lot of them provide rent or mortgage incentives, people support each other and the community, and often there are amenities nearby in more established communities. They are also usually more appealing to young families, which might be a nice fit.
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amother
Mauve
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Tue, Nov 17 2020, 2:53 pm
My best friend who is a BT did almost exactly this, down to extreme involvement from secular grandparents. Their frumkeit did not stagnate, it seriously suffered. It sounds like you are BT, which imo means it’s far more important to have a frum community.
Virtually all moms in America have to put their kids in daycare. It’s hard, especially with the first , but if that’s the only way to live in a frum community, there’s no question.
Do you have a rav? If so, he should be consulted on this .
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Refine
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Tue, Nov 17 2020, 3:04 pm
From my experience of moving to a new community (even the warmest, most open one), it takes time to build a network. As in months and years possibly. Frum life is much more doable and pleasant in a network. Children who grow up in a family that is part of a greater community really benefit. If a child doesn't clic with a parent, they have another like minded adult who they can get guidance or inspiration from. The sense of belonging is very beneficial.
I'd suggest you move the your forever community as soon as you can so you can settle in.
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gold21
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Tue, Nov 17 2020, 4:39 pm
Personally, I understand your hesitation about daycare. If I cultivated a value system for myself around what "everyone else" was okay with, I would be a very different person. Every person has their own innate sense of what they're comfortable with. So, I understand your being less than thrilled about relying on daycare.
With that said, obviously, many of us have no choice but to rely on daycare regardless of what our value system is. Life is life. Gotta pay the bills. And we try to make the best of it.
But if I personally was given this choice, I would consider the option of having your parents babysit. But you have to think this through very very carefully to see if it can actually work.
At the same time, I want to echo what the previous poster (directly above me) said about the benefits of getting settled into, and establishing yourself in, the frum community you plan to live in long term. It's a very fair point and worth consideration.
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amother
Taupe
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Tue, Nov 17 2020, 11:30 pm
As another Chabad shlucha, (hi fellow shluchos! Didn’t realize there are so many of us here  I would say, don’t do it. A frum person needs to be in a frum community to thrive. There’s a reason that that’s how our people lived for generations! Yes, Chabad shluchim move out to secular areas, but the defining point is what another shlucha mentioned upthread - when you’re in the position of being a giver and a leader, you need to rise to the occasion and inspire others around you. If you’re moving to a secular place as a layperson, it’s fairly certain that your spiritual level will suffer. That will certainly impact your child, arguably more than being in daycare.
That said, I’ve always had the opportunity to be home with my children and I wouldn’t want to send to daycare. There are alternatives though; a nanny share in your home or in a friends’ has a very different flavor.
Just wanted to say that you are blessed to have loving parents that would consider offering you to care for your child full time.
Good luck with your decision!
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amother
Cerulean
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Tue, Nov 17 2020, 11:46 pm
We tried joining my parents on shlichus with a 2 year old. So, out of town community, no support, we sent dc to a modern orthodox playgroup.
It was too hard. We moved back to NY. The smallest things were impossible. Being able to send a toddler to shul with dh instead of being stuck the whole shabbos. Playdates. Etc.
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amother
Green
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Wed, Nov 18 2020, 12:59 am
| Refine wrote: |
I'd suggest you move the your forever community as soon as you can so you can settle in. |
Long-term, not forever. Only Israel is forever.
And to some of the other posters, please don't knock MO Jews. It's true that (especially in smaller communities) their institutions will accept kids from non-observant homes, but it's not fair to suggest that therefore, Modern Orthodox Jews don't observe halacha.
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Chickensoupprof
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Wed, Nov 18 2020, 1:18 am
| amother [ Taupe ] wrote: | As another Chabad shlucha, (hi fellow shluchos! Didn’t realize there are so many of us here I would say, don’t do it. A frum person needs to be in a frum community to thrive. There’s a reason that that’s how our people lived for generations! Yes, Chabad shluchim move out to secular areas, but the defining point is what another shlucha mentioned upthread - when you’re in the position of being a giver and a leader, you need to rise to the occasion and inspire others around you. If you’re moving to a secular place as a layperson, it’s fairly certain that your spiritual level will suffer. That will certainly impact your child, arguably more than being in daycare.
That said, I’ve always had the opportunity to be home with my children and I wouldn’t want to send to daycare. There are alternatives though; a nanny share in your home or in a friends’ has a very different flavor.
Just wanted to say that you are blessed to have loving parents that would consider offering you to care for your child full time.
Good luck with your decision! |
Exactly many sluchos in the Netherlands suggested I should move ASAP when I have children. Even Amsterdam is hard to thrive sometimes since the community is getting smaller and smaller and relies on new sluchim or new kiruv kollel avreichem who stay for a few years and then go back to UK or Israel. I work with sluchim, I got frum within Chabad, my first contacts in orthodox Dutch Jewry was with the sluchim I almost know every shliach in the NL and have been to their houses. That is how I saw you can be frum and be live in a place like Nijmegen, Utrecht or Eindhoven BUT... I help the sluchim here out A LOT and the difference is, is that they see it as their mission from the Rebbe to be there and to bring Jews closer to Judaism that is why they are here. But before the 2nd wave here and the fact we couldn't go to England for sukkos they kinda said that we needed to go to Amsterdam. Because we need to have that community more then they do. At the end, it is nice to be able to discuss lessons online for women with the slucha, it is nice my husband has someone to learn with and it is nice that the children have me to take care for them when the sluchim need to do some arrants like bikur cholim, preparing lessons or everything like that. At the end, their children know they are sluchim and at the internet (tzivios hashem) they know some other sluchim children nad they make a team, they go to Sweden for camp they know that it's their mission and that this is what the Rebbe wanted.
Because I'm not officially Chabad and I married someone litvish , I have a strong connection and I feel the responsibility in my community as a 'slucha' (which I'm not but this is basically how it now works ) but because I'm not attached to Chabad Netherlands and won't see it as my job and don't get paid for it I see it sometimes at a burden to let's say on a Rosh Hashana table hear over and over again why we dip apple in the honey, or AGAIN need to say to someone 'please on Shabbos we don't go out for a smoke' or hear in shul someone seeing on their phone. And the end being in a community is preferable, but I understand the prices... I have now a 2 bedroom appartment with storage, laundry room, big kitchen and the like for 1375 Euro a month in Nijmegen in Amsterdam I had to pay for this at least 2000 Euro or more, in Golders Green 2200 Pounds...
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amother
Goldenrod
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Wed, Nov 18 2020, 2:23 am
While there are exceptions to every rule I would say do not do it.
What can seem like a tempting solution can be pushing off decisions that don't necessary get easier down the road and in fact can get tougher.
Too many unknowns and best to stick with common wisdom.
Speak to your rov.
There are good reasons why people in your situation even with the most loving parents do not do this.
Hatzlocha
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amother
Dodgerblue
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Wed, Nov 18 2020, 12:07 pm
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I was so torn after my baby ws born. I was pursuing a degree but I just couldn’t imagine leaving him in the morning. So I switched my education to part time at night and opened up my own small babysitting group at home so I could spend the day with him. It’s been a few years and I haven’t looked back once...
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amother
OP
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Wed, Nov 18 2020, 1:14 pm
OP here. Thanks to everyone for the many thoughtful and great replies. Very interesting to read all the different perspectives. Some various thoughts, questions, and answers to questions people had:
- Someone said to ask our rav about the halacha for having my non-frum parents help out? Please explain; I have no idea what this is even referring to, so I don't even know how to ask it to the rav. Other than shabbos issues, what I can't imagine what halachic issues there could possibly be. My parents would be respectful about giving the kid kosher food.
- Yes, we've discussed this with our rav, who we love and respect. He thinks it's an absolute no-brainer to move to the frum community and we would be insane to live near my parents. We definitely value his opinion, but we're not the type of people who just do what the rav tells them to do on issues that aren't halacha. (It's funny. Our non-frum Jewish friends all say to be near my parents. More right-wing friends say to definitely move to the frum community. And our more MO friends say it's a really tough decision.)
- As many people mentioned, the biggest negatives to us for not living in the frum community are: 1) us suffering/stagnating Jewishly, and 2) the hassle of having to move twice. We obviously are well aware of all the benefits of living in a frum community. To us, it's just a question of weighing them against the benefits of having child care by grandma.
- Everyone seems to agree that husband and I will be disserved Jewishly by not being in a frum community. My question is whether the kid will suffer Jewishly, or whether it doesn't matter before a certain age? And at what age does it matter? Do kids even remember or absorb specific knowledge from preschool, or is it just about getting the brain activated? Will it really affect their Jewish upbringing if they don't play "dress up Shabbat" as 2-3 y/o's in preschool and do whatever other Jewish stuff they do? Husband and I went to Jewish (non-ortho) preschools and our parents say we did all that stuff, but we have no memories of it whatsoever. Will it affect their Jewish upbringing if they're not being carried around the bimah on Simchat Torah as toddlers, or do they not even remember? If the kid goes to a non-Jewish preschool or don't go to preschool at all and we sing Jewish songs with him at home, does it matter that he lost out on a frum Jewish preschool experience?
- When I feel like I don't want to stick the kid in day care, I'm speaking both about a formal daycare and the frum nanny-share things that people run out of their houses. There are pros and cons to each of them relative to each other, but I ultimately don't like either of them. Either way, I think kids under 2 are too young to be in that environment being watched by someone watching 4-5 kids at once who doesn't love them. (I particularly don't like the ones where one of the kids in the group is a child of the caregiver, because that means your kid is already in 2nd place to some other kid's needs.)
- Yes, we've certainly thought about what we do if we have more kids (BeH). Obviously we can't plan everything, but by the time this one is in kindergarten and we move to a frum community, perhaps the 2nd one already had 1-2 years of child care from grandma and he can go directly into preschool. Or perhaps there's a point with multiple kids where it makes sense for me to work part time or quit working for a couple years. Hard to plan these things exactly since it's out of our hands, but I think there would be benefit to even the 2nd kid having time with grandma even if that's not the entire time before kindergarten.
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amother
Burgundy
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Wed, Nov 18 2020, 1:27 pm
I hear both sides.
I am very opposed to children being in full-time daycare (having supported a DH in kollel over 10 years, and all my kids in kollel, most close to or longer than that, but none of us worked more than part time). So a loving Bubbie, even if not frum, sounds much better to me.
But the concerns raised are very valid.
One idea I have though. Are you close enough to a hospitable frum community to consider going for most or many Shabbosim? This could give your connection to Yiddishkeit a frequent injection of positivity, as well as providing social interactions.
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tichellady
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Wed, Nov 18 2020, 2:05 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | OP here. Thanks to everyone for the many thoughtful and great replies. Very interesting to read all the different perspectives. Some various thoughts, questions, and answers to questions people had:
- Someone said to ask our rav about the halacha for having my non-frum parents help out? Please explain; I have no idea what this is even referring to, so I don't even know how to ask it to the rav. Other than shabbos issues, what I can't imagine what halachic issues there could possibly be. My parents would be respectful about giving the kid kosher food.
- Yes, we've discussed this with our rav, who we love and respect. He thinks it's an absolute no-brainer to move to the frum community and we would be insane to live near my parents. We definitely value his opinion, but we're not the type of people who just do what the rav tells them to do on issues that aren't halacha. (It's funny. Our non-frum Jewish friends all say to be near my parents. More right-wing friends say to definitely move to the frum community. And our more MO friends say it's a really tough decision.)
- As many people mentioned, the biggest negatives to us for not living in the frum community are: 1) us suffering/stagnating Jewishly, and 2) the hassle of having to move twice. We obviously are well aware of all the benefits of living in a frum community. To us, it's just a question of weighing them against the benefits of having child care by grandma.
- Everyone seems to agree that husband and I will be disserved Jewishly by not being in a frum community. My question is whether the kid will suffer Jewishly, or whether it doesn't matter before a certain age? And at what age does it matter? Do kids even remember or absorb specific knowledge from preschool, or is it just about getting the brain activated? Will it really affect their Jewish upbringing if they don't play "dress up Shabbat" as 2-3 y/o's in preschool and do whatever other Jewish stuff they do? Husband and I went to Jewish (non-ortho) preschools and our parents say we did all that stuff, but we have no memories of it whatsoever. Will it affect their Jewish upbringing if they're not being carried around the bimah on Simchat Torah as toddlers, or do they not even remember? If the kid goes to a non-Jewish preschool or don't go to preschool at all and we sing Jewish songs with him at home, does it matter that he lost out on a frum Jewish preschool experience?
- When I feel like I don't want to stick the kid in day care, I'm speaking both about a formal daycare and the frum nanny-share things that people run out of their houses. There are pros and cons to each of them relative to each other, but I ultimately don't like either of them. Either way, I think kids under 2 are too young to be in that environment being watched by someone watching 4-5 kids at once who doesn't love them. (I particularly don't like the ones where one of the kids in the group is a child of the caregiver, because that means your kid is already in 2nd place to some other kid's needs.)
- Yes, we've certainly thought about what we do if we have more kids (BeH). Obviously we can't plan everything, but by the time this one is in kindergarten and we move to a frum community, perhaps the 2nd one already had 1-2 years of child care from grandma and he can go directly into preschool. Or perhaps there's a point with multiple kids where it makes sense for me to work part time or quit working for a couple years. Hard to plan these things exactly since it's out of our hands, but I think there would be benefit to even the 2nd kid having time with grandma even if that's not the entire time before kindergarten. |
I also am not ok with one person watching 4-5 children. I don’t see why you can’t do a nanny share with one other person so there are two children being watched by one adult. Or find a daycare with a much lower ratio of adults to children. Even if it’s more expensive, money is for paying for the things that are important to you.
Honestly, if you knew for sure the childcare would work out maybe it would make sense but I think in most cases grandparents are not able to help as much as they want and I don’t want you to move somewhere just for the childcare and have that backfire.
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trixx
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Wed, Nov 18 2020, 2:21 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | OP here. Thanks to everyone for the many thoughtful and great replies. Very interesting to read all the different perspectives. Some various thoughts, questions, and answers to questions people had:
- Someone said to ask our rav about the halacha for having my non-frum parents help out? Please explain; I have no idea what this is even referring to, so I don't even know how to ask it to the rav. Other than shabbos issues, what I can't imagine what halachic issues there could possibly be. My parents would be respectful about giving the kid kosher food.
- Yes, we've discussed this with our rav, who we love and respect. He thinks it's an absolute no-brainer to move to the frum community and we would be insane to live near my parents. We definitely value his opinion, but we're not the type of people who just do what the rav tells them to do on issues that aren't halacha. (It's funny. Our non-frum Jewish friends all say to be near my parents. More right-wing friends say to definitely move to the frum community. And our more MO friends say it's a really tough decision.)
- As many people mentioned, the biggest negatives to us for not living in the frum community are: 1) us suffering/stagnating Jewishly, and 2) the hassle of having to move twice. We obviously are well aware of all the benefits of living in a frum community. To us, it's just a question of weighing them against the benefits of having child care by grandma.
- Everyone seems to agree that husband and I will be disserved Jewishly by not being in a frum community. My question is whether the kid will suffer Jewishly, or whether it doesn't matter before a certain age? And at what age does it matter? Do kids even remember or absorb specific knowledge from preschool, or is it just about getting the brain activated? Will it really affect their Jewish upbringing if they don't play "dress up Shabbat" as 2-3 y/o's in preschool and do whatever other Jewish stuff they do? Husband and I went to Jewish (non-ortho) preschools and our parents say we did all that stuff, but we have no memories of it whatsoever. Will it affect their Jewish upbringing if they're not being carried around the bimah on Simchat Torah as toddlers, or do they not even remember? If the kid goes to a non-Jewish preschool or don't go to preschool at all and we sing Jewish songs with him at home, does it matter that he lost out on a frum Jewish preschool experience?
- When I feel like I don't want to stick the kid in day care, I'm speaking both about a formal daycare and the frum nanny-share things that people run out of their houses. There are pros and cons to each of them relative to each other, but I ultimately don't like either of them. Either way, I think kids under 2 are too young to be in that environment being watched by someone watching 4-5 kids at once who doesn't love them. (I particularly don't like the ones where one of the kids in the group is a child of the caregiver, because that means your kid is already in 2nd place to some other kid's needs.)
- Yes, we've certainly thought about what we do if we have more kids (BeH). Obviously we can't plan everything, but by the time this one is in kindergarten and we move to a frum community, perhaps the 2nd one already had 1-2 years of child care from grandma and he can go directly into preschool. Or perhaps there's a point with multiple kids where it makes sense for me to work part time or quit working for a couple years. Hard to plan these things exactly since it's out of our hands, but I think there would be benefit to even the 2nd kid having time with grandma even if that's not the entire time before kindergarten. |
1. It's not just food and shabbos. TV? Character toys? Method of discipline? These aren't Jewish issues but ones that come up when family helps watch kids.
2. It's not "funny" it's an exact indicator of cultural values. Your not frum friends think it's normal to live oot by your parents. Your frum friends understand that's insane, as does your rav (one reason to listen to him is simply bc he's seen it all, and from the inside). Your MO friends vary on the spectrum which is why their responses vary.
3. I don't understand how you appreciate the value of loving childcare but don't appreciate the incredible capacity the developing brain has, most importantly before age 3. This is the definition of chinuch. You either get it or you don't, but it's not true that all things are created equal and your child won't know or absorb the difference (whether he consciously remembers it or not) between a secular early education and a frum one. Preschool isn't songs, it's the environment. Again, you don't have to appreciate this, but I'd think someone attuned enough to the daycare dilemma would also be sensitive to her child's upbringing and not want to farm off either responsibility.
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jkw
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Wed, Nov 18 2020, 8:47 pm
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We went to a frum community for Shabbosim for a few years before we moved there. The kids were SO happy to be in a place where they were not the only ones keeping Shabbos etc but ALL the kids they played with also did. I wish we had moved earlier.
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