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Is ODD a thing? Spinoff gentle parenting thread
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 9:57 am
I see it as a way to validate that some children are legitimately a lot more resistant to direction than others, even than others with disorders. An answer to statements like professor's above (nothing personal, professor.) And due to this exceptionality, their behavior needs to be addressed differently than usual.

I am not a neuropsychologist or anything, so I can't speak to the technical validity of the diagnosis or where the issues stem from. But as someone who works with behaviorally challenged children and in general I try to stay in tune with the mental health field, this is how I view it when I hear that someone has ODD.
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 9:57 am
amother [ Slategray ] wrote:
I used to babysit for a family who has 3 ODD diagnosed kids, out of 6.

Let me tell you, you can easily see it in a 2yo toddler. It looks extremely different from any other type of toddler behavior. It's hard to describe unless you are right there looking at it, but trust me, you know it's not normal.

The two older kids really struggled until they reached 17 or 18. I don't think that they were magically "cured", I think they matured and acquired life skills that helped them self regulate and make good choices.

The older girl just got married, B'H. Her mom warned the chassan that his kallah was going to be a handful!

The older boy is learning in kollel, and doing very well. He takes his oppositional nature to his chavrusa, and channels it into learning deeper.

The younger one is having a very hard time in elementary school right now, but her parents have hope that she'll be OK in time, like her older siblings.


Anon because these are specific details, and I don't want anyone guessing who this family is. They're not of the board.

There is something very wrong about a prospective MIL telling a chassan that his wife will be a handful. This line tells me there may have been more to the story.
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amother
Babypink


 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 9:59 am
crust wrote:
Because she felt accused and that we are saying that her parenting is causing the ADD.

Thanks amother wheat/copper for giving the chance to correct that.

Its not your fault.

You can still have many benefits from using gentle parenting even the child has ADD.


Are we talking about ODD or ADD? I'm confused. They're very different.

And true I hear that she felt accused. I was just reminding her that another person on the internet's opinion is just that: a person on the internet's opinion. It doesn't make it toras moshe.
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amother
Denim


 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 10:00 am
amother [ Beige ] wrote:
I see ODD as a comorbidity to something else. Especially if the comorbidity is untreated As in it is a real disorder, but all my experiences professionally working in a school for kids who are to young for juvie but exhibiting behaviors that would but them there if they where over 12, the kids had been exhibiting symptoms of a cocktail of anxiety, depression, add/adhd, trauma, asd, dysfunctional home life, mood disorders....
Sometimes kids with parents who really tried to treat the underlying issue still developed ODD, but I never met a kid with out an underlying condition/circumstance.

One caveat - the kids I worked with where involved in real criminal like behavior. There may be other situations that are different.
its comorbid because when neurotransmitters are out of balance, they’re all out of balance.
Unless it’s a case of clear cut trauma.
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amother
Pink


 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 10:01 am
ODD is a lazy diagnosis that says "we don't know the root cause of the behavior." It does not help the child at all. What is causing the defiance? Is child uncomfortable? Suffering from anxiety? Has an unnoticed disability? Something bothering them?
Yes, some children do have a more difficult nature then others, but writing them off as ODD just hurts the child.
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amother
Puce


 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 10:01 am
What is called ADHD is neurological, but that doesn't automatically make it "real". There is no objective truth to whether a set of characteristics is a disorder.
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 10:02 am
amother [ Denim ] wrote:
its comorbid because when neurotransmitters are out of balance, they’re all out of balance.
Unless it’s a case of clear cut trauma.

Trauma is rarely clear cut, especially in the society in which we live in.
It’s extremely validating for me to hear that ODD can be the result of trauma. I know deep down I would’ve been a very different child without the trauma.
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crust




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 10:03 am
amother [ Babypink ] wrote:
Are we talking about ODD or ADD? I'm confused. They're very different.

And true I hear that she felt accused. I was just reminding her that another person on the internet's opinion is just that: a person on the internet's opinion. It doesn't make it toras moshe.


The reason I started this spinoff was because I saw that amother wheat isn't clear about what zahava said on the gentle parenting thread.


Amother copper on this thread is amother wheat on the gentle parenting thread.

I know she was upset about the ADD so I responded to her about ADD but this thread is about both, ADD and ODD.

Sorry for the confusion.
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 10:04 am
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
What is called ADHD is neurological, but that doesn't automatically make it "real". There is no objective truth to whether a set of characteristics is a disorder.

Right! And there is no test for dopamine as far as I know.
When my child was tested the doctor gave me a sheet of symptoms to check off and then said “this is ADHD clear cut”.
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crust




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 10:07 am
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
What is called ADHD is neurological, but that doesn't automatically make it "real". There is no objective truth to whether a set of characteristics is a disorder.


True. I just don't want to open a whole new can of worms.

I think the dsm is created by people that are backdated and corporate.

There. I said it.
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amother
Slategray


 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 10:09 am
Zehava wrote:
There is something very wrong about a prospective MIL telling a chassan that his wife will be a handful. This line tells me there may have been more to the story.


You totally misread how I meant it. You would have to know the family, and the chosson's personality to really get the context, I guess. Especially since you seem to be reading things through a very particular lens of bias.

She said it in a really joking way. She adores her daughter, and loves that her daughter is still very spirited and enthusiastic about things. That's what she meant by "handful." The girl has grown up to be very eidel, but she's not the shy or super serious type.
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 10:10 am
crust wrote:
True. I just don't want to open a whole new can of worms.

I think the dsm is created by people that are backdated and corporate.

There. I said it.

As Pete Walker says in the intro to his book
If Complex PTSD were a recognized condition the DSM would shrink to a pamphlet.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 10:10 am
amother [ Pink ] wrote:
ODD is a lazy diagnosis that says "we don't know the root cause of the behavior." It does not help the child at all. What is causing the defiance? Is child uncomfortable? Suffering from anxiety? Has an unnoticed disability? Something bothering them?
Yes, some children do have a more difficult nature then others, but writing them off as ODD just hurts the child.


Honestly, I often wonder if ODD isn't just undiagnosed PANDAS. It's certainly a possibility.
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amother
Mauve


 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 10:11 am
Zehava wrote:
Trauma is rarely clear cut, especially in the society in which we live in.
It’s extremely validating for me to hear that ODD can be the result of trauma. I know deep down I would’ve been a very different child without the trauma.


Same. I don’t have ODD, but I was always convinced that I had aspergers. Turns out, it’s just trauma.
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 10:11 am
amother [ Slategray ] wrote:
You totally misread how I meant it. You would have to know the family, and the chosson's personality to really get the context, I guess. Especially since you seem to be reading things through a very particular lens of bias.

She said it in a really joking way. She adores her daughter, and loves that her daughter is still very spirited and enthusiastic about things. That's what she meant by "handful." The girl has grown up to be very eidel, but she's not the shy or super serious type.

I get that. And I still maintain what I said. As they say every joke has a kernel of truth.
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 10:13 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
Honestly, I often wonder if ODD isn't just undiagnosed PANDAS. It's certainly a possibility.

There would have to be a drastic sudden change for that to be true. Maybe it is for some kids and the parents miss it.
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amother
Pumpkin


 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 10:19 am
Had a student once with this diagnosis. His mom said he had displayed certain characteristics from the time he was a young baby. He was under care of a psychiatrist and was taking meds, still she was scared of him. He would physically hurt her as well as his siblings. Would physically hurt their pet dog (squeeze and try to choke ) . This was with being on meds. He was around 9 or 10. Yes, I believe there was something going on with his brain chemistry.
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 10:23 am
amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:
Had a student once with this diagnosis. His mom said he had displayed certain characteristics from the time he was a young baby. He was under care of a psychiatrist and was taking meds, still she was scared of him. He would physically hurt her as well as his siblings. Would physically hurt their pet dog (squeeze and try to choke ) . This was with being on meds. He was around 9 or 10. Yes, I believe there was something going on with his brain chemistry.

Was there maybe sociopathy involved?
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 10:28 am
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
What is called ADHD is neurological, but that doesn't automatically make it "real". There is no objective truth to whether a set of characteristics is a disorder.

Bear with me while I try to follow the logic.
As far as I know, the opposite of real is fake.
So if you're saying "that doesn't make it real" that implies "it could just as well be fake."
What does fake mean in this case? That there is no reason why thousands of people have serious functional difficulties? Or that thousands of people are lying when they say they want to have a functional life but a specific set of characteristics prevents that?
I'm trying not to derail this thread but I am confused here.
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crust




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 10:31 am
seeker wrote:
Bear with me while I try to follow the logic.
As far as I know, the opposite of real is fake.
So if you're saying "that doesn't make it real" that implies "it could just as well be fake."
What does fake mean in this case? That there is no reason why thousands of people have serious functional difficulties? Or that thousands of people are lying when they say they want to have a functional life but a specific set of characteristics prevents that?
I'm trying not to derail this thread but I am confused here.


When I read the post you quoted I thought she was using fancy language but she meant to say a more simple thing.

I'll wait for her to respond to your post before I make it more complicated.
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