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Schooling makes me regret becominbhg frum
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amother
Wine


 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 5:38 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I could tear my hair out. Yeah such little things drive me nuts.
And then the school says: they are chutzpadik. I said it straight: I will not force my children to respect people who do not deserve it. I would not tell them to obey a teacher who does not allow bathroom breaks. My job is to teach them right from wrong and to recognize when they are treated badly.
this is such an awful attitude. Your kids need to show respect to their teachers regardless if you feel they deserve it. Derech eretz is extremely important, and you need to teach your kids that they must show respect no matter what, and you as the parent need to work things out with the teacher and faculty yourself. (In general, the lesson should be that everyone deserves to be treated with respect, bec they have a tzelem elokim. This has nothing to do with recognizing if your treated good/bad.)
And if you’re transparent about your negative and dismissive attitude towards the school, you can bet your bottom dollar your kids will have it too.
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amother
Cerulean


 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 5:44 pm
amother [ Wine ] wrote:
this is such an awful attitude. Your kids need to show respect to their teachers regardless if you feel they deserve it. Derech eretz is extremely important, and you need to teach your kids that they must show respect no matter what, and you as the parent need to work things out with the teacher and faculty yourself. (In general, the lesson should be that everyone deserves to be treated with respect, bec they have a tzelem elokim. This has nothing to do with recognizing if your treated good/bad.)
And if you’re transparent about your negative and dismissive attitude towards the school, you can bet your bottom dollar your kids will have it too.


I disagree.

There is encouraging disrespect and forcing respect that isn't deserved or earned.

The former is wrong, the latter, especially with older children, is extremely unhealthy.

I made my children korbanos to an abusive school in the name of "chinuch". Do you know how much therapy I've spent in rebuilding my children's trust in adults? in frum people? in me?

Do you know how much chinuch I have to do to teach my children how to be healthy? how not to mimic what they learned from those in positions of authority?

And I never once badmouthed their teachers or suggested defiance. But I no longer just tell them to live with it or even believe the teacher over them just because. (I don't say I don't believe the teacher either, etc.)

Also, some dysfunctional teachers/hanhola think "respect" is accepting abuse and disrespect, and I no longer will teach my children that they have to take that. I will teach them how to imho respectfully address it--which sadly, is seen as disrespect by certain abusive, dysfunctional adults.

Anyways, I feel strongly about this because I used to feel like you "wine", but I found that in certain situations, it hurt my children more than helped.
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 5:58 pm
amother [ Wine ] wrote:
this is such an awful attitude. Your kids need to show respect to their teachers regardless if you feel they deserve it. Derech eretz is extremely important, and you need to teach your kids that they must show respect no matter what, and you as the parent need to work things out with the teacher and faculty yourself. (In general, the lesson should be that everyone deserves to be treated with respect, bec they have a tzelem elokim. This has nothing to do with recognizing if your treated good/bad.)
And if you’re transparent about your negative and dismissive attitude towards the school, you can bet your bottom dollar your kids will have it too.


Not letting an 11 y.o. use the toilet is abuse. There are no two opinions about it.
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 6:01 pm
Goldie613 wrote:
What about homeschooling? There are more ways to do that now then there used to be because of the virus. You can even just have them use it as a supplement to fill in the gaps in their education.


I haven't done it personally, though I have considered it over the years (and am in fact re-looking at it now as a temp Covid option). There's probably some moms on here who could direct you if you want to try it. Here's some interesting articles - hope they help =

https://www.chabad.org/theJewi.....g.htm


https://www.jta.org/2019/08/01.....oling


https://www.nigrijewishonlines.....40916


Sorry, I don't want to out myself. Home-schoolong is not possible for several reasons, including us both working out of the house.
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imorethanamother




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 6:02 pm
Can you give us an approximate location where you live? Is there something else a bit further away? I love OOT and we love our schools.
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 6:07 pm
amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:
I live OOT. I could say all the same things. I have a child in public school since the end of 8th grade. (Not NYC, but urban, although very good for bright kids). The alternative was sending him away to dorm a few hours away, and he didn't want to live away from home. Also, in hindsight, it was good because the yeshiva he would have gone to, which has a lot going for it, has regular drug use (and all the boys dorm). My son does know kids who use drugs now, but bh he doesn't and doesn't want to, and also doesn't have to live with it. (like he would in a dorm) Also, right now, with COVID, he's learning 100% at home.

He was so miserable in the day school for about 8 years. He'd become the kid to blame and punish (and the punishments were always draconian for him). The administration makes up rules and punishments and it's very clear which families get slaps on the wrists and which don't....(ie. when the student is the principal's grandchild or some other teacher's child, there's clemency...)

He was a walking ball of stress and tension. He was a new person not being in that environment--and no, it wasn't frumkeit/isn't frumkeit. It was all the dysfunction. He was noticeably calmer and happier without it. He once gave a teacher some lip last year, but that's it. He's not getting in trouble because he's not a bad kid, and since he's in class mostly with kids who want to be there and teachers actually teaching...there isn't an atmosphere of chaos and pranks.

I have other children still in the school, who have to still be there because their father insists. And no, we can't move. BH at least they are happy there, but my youngest will probably be bored when she gets older because the classes will not challenge her, and I'll want to give her better/more in limudei chol because she will just go out of her mind in boredom. I can tell with that one.

I have no advice. My situation with my oldest was unique, and public school was the right answer. I cry to Hashem a lot, because I hate what they did to my oldest child. I hate the dysfunction and yes, abuse, that some of my other kids have had to deal with. Bullying and manipulation is rampant. I could at least stomach subpar academics if I felt the environment was healthy and not damaging, and that my kids were happy.

So, no advice, but you're not alone. Maybe you're even from my town.


I offered my oldest child to go to public school for gifted children and he refused, because he is "chareidi" and wants to be in a Jewish school. I guess I have to wait till he is ready.

He loves learning but bad teaching can kill any motivation.
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 6:09 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
Can you give us an approximate location where you live? Is there something else a bit further away? I love OOT and we love our schools.


I live in Europe. Moving to other European countries is difficult because of language barriers.

We have considered Israel but will have no parnassa there.
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 6:13 pm
amother [ Wine ] wrote:
this is such an awful attitude. Your kids need to show respect to their teachers regardless if you feel they deserve it. Derech eretz is extremely important, and you need to teach your kids that they must show respect no matter what, and you as the parent need to work things out with the teacher and faculty yourself. (In general, the lesson should be that everyone deserves to be treated with respect, bec they have a tzelem elokim. This has nothing to do with recognizing if your treated good/bad.)
And if you’re transparent about your negative and dismissive attitude towards the school, you can bet your bottom dollar your kids will have it too.


Just to clarify. I was reacting to ginger amother's post.
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 6:15 pm
amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:
I disagree.

There is encouraging disrespect and forcing respect that isn't deserved or earned.

The former is wrong, the latter, especially with older children, is extremely unhealthy.

I made my children korbanos to an abusive school in the name of "chinuch". Do you know how much therapy I've spent in rebuilding my children's trust in adults? in frum people? in me?

Do you know how much chinuch I have to do to teach my children how to be healthy? how not to mimic what they learned from those in positions of authority?

And I never once badmouthed their teachers or suggested defiance. But I no longer just tell them to live with it or even believe the teacher over them just because. (I don't say I don't believe the teacher either, etc.)

Also, some dysfunctional teachers/hanhola think "respect" is accepting abuse and disrespect, and I no longer will teach my children that they have to take that. I will teach them how to imho respectfully address it--which sadly, is seen as disrespect by certain abusive, dysfunctional adults.

Anyways, I feel strongly about this because I used to feel like you "wine", but I found that in certain situations, it hurt my children more than helped.


Yes you get it. The framework of out school is so stressful that one of my kids wet their bed for years, but nit on summer breaks! Corona cured it BH. But it was eye-opening.
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amother
Wine


 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 6:25 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Not letting an 11 y.o. use the toilet is abuse. There are no two opinions about it.
of course it is. So call the teacher AND the principal. But don’t tell your kid to tell the teacher he didn’t wash his hands or whatever that comment was. Tell the kid to take the time he needs. And to go to the bathroom during recess. And that you will work it out with the teacher and/ or principal. There are plenty of responses that don’t involve engaging with the teacher in a chutzpadik manner.
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amother
Ginger


 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 6:30 pm
amother [ Wine ] wrote:
of course it is. So call the teacher AND the principal. But don’t tell your kid to tell the teacher he didn’t wash his hands or whatever that comment was. Tell the kid to take the time he needs. And to go to the bathroom during recess. And that you will work it out with the teacher and/ or principal. There are plenty of responses that don’t involve engaging with the teacher in a chutzpadik manner.


Yes. We tried the other ways. The teachers ego leaves no room for the other ways. The principal would love to replace him. But there seems to be a teacher shortage.

This seemed to do the trick. It was not confrontational. The teacher realized two minutes is not enough time. Without the child needing to explicit explain that...

I know what the right thing to do is with reasonable people. And BH we figured out how to deal with other characters as well.
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ectomorph




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 6:48 pm
Op is in Europe. I have no idea what schools there are like. I thin everyone assumes you are in USA Op.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Nov 17 2020, 6:53 pm
In your case public school may be a better choice for your kids
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, Nov 18 2020, 3:01 am
ectomorph wrote:
Op is in Europe. I have no idea what schools there are like. I thin everyone assumes you are in USA Op.


I understand. I don't mind that because I am happy to hear that there ARE schools that are accountable and responsible and well-organized and have well-being of its students in mind.

I am just not there where these schools are..
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amother
Blue


 

Post Wed, Nov 18 2020, 3:38 am
I am so sorry. My husband's father had a similar issue, oot, also in Europe, and he didn't like any of the local school options. In one cheating was rampant, in another the teachers were abusive. So he sent my husband to a non Jewish school. My husband survived this experience, but he hated it. It was very difficult socially to be the only chareidi kid in his school. There were other Jewish kids, even other frum kids but no one else who wore a yarmulka. He doesn't have a single close friend from the 4 or 5 years he spent in that school. He persuaded his father not to do the same to his younger brothers.

I am also from Europe and while my school was pretty mediocre in many areas most of the teachers were pretty nice and there was very little abusive behaviour. Some teachers were excellent. There was definitely an effort made to do professional training - I taught myself in this school and was sent to courses and encouraged to do a degree in childcare. (didn't finish though)
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 18 2020, 3:40 am
OP, look into the Naale program and see if any of the schools would fit your kids.

Its for age 13/14 and up. High school in Israel.
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amother
Babyblue


 

Post Wed, Nov 18 2020, 5:47 am
lots of good advice here
please do not allow yourself to fall into the trap of exchanging one set of problems for a bigger one

there are solutions to the issue of a mismatched school

especially now
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Genius




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 18 2020, 9:59 am
Those schools that don’t allow bathroom breaks don’t have recess time? If they do, why can’t the kids go then?
And what’s wrong with giving the kids a time when they need to be back? Many kids go to the bathroom and then roam the hallways for another ten minutes disturbing other classes. Doesn’t have to be two minutes (although I believe most moms are done with the entire peeing process in 90 seconds flat. A minute is way longer than most people give it credit for) you can request for it to be longer but I don’t see the evil in this particular scenario.
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