12 year old son’s EXTREME chutzpah

amother

Wed, Nov 18 2020, 10:54 pm

Ds chutzpah is getting really bad. He’s always been a moody/angry child but now his Chutzpah is off the charts. Some examples are screaming into mine and dh’s face, calling us liars, cheater when he doesn’t get his way, says No straight out when he doesn’t want to do something, Will completely ignore us when we ask him to do s/t, when we try to discipline him he says he’s going to teach us a lesson for taking away privileges by acting even worse and on and on and on many many other examples too many to list here. Please don’t say to take him for counseling, he refuses to see a/o. I’m at a loss how to deal with this.

crust

Wed, Nov 18 2020, 11:05 pm

Clear the air for 2 weeks

No telling him anything.

Then for another few weeks.

Then for another.

Most chutzpah is created by the parents not by the children. I'm not saying this in a judgemental way.
It's just a fact that people aren't aware of.

(If you feel helpless like you know intuitively that there's nothing you can do then you need to take him for an eval for adhd or a mood disorder. Whatever I said before only applies to regular healthy kids.)

amother

Wed, Nov 18 2020, 11:13 pm

[quote="crust"]Clear the air for 2 weeks

No telling him anything.

Then for another few weeks.

Then for another.

Most chutzpah is created by the parents not by the children. I'm not saying this in a judgemental way.
It's just a fact that people aren't aware of

Can you elaborate on the above? Not sure what you mean no telling him a/t. He’s insulting and screaming at me and dh.
Why do you think parents create chutzpah.

amother

Pewter

Wed, Nov 18 2020, 11:15 pm

crust wrote:

So no asking him to do anything? Leave his coat on the floor? When he leaves the front door open when he comes in at 9pm? Take a shower? What about telling him no computer time now? What if he's upset his sister got a bigger piece of cake? What if he wants his brothers seat? What if he teases sibling? What if he physically hurts his siblings?

I'm sorry it's so detailed but I never understand what are the limits?

crust

Wed, Nov 18 2020, 11:21 pm

Quote:

Can you elaborate on the above? Not sure what you mean no telling him a/t. He’s insulting and screaming at me and dh.
Why do you think parents create chutzpah.

You can greet him Good morning and tell him anything positive but not in a patronizing or condescending way.

Parents create the chutzpah by giving orders.
If you have a very obedient child and you tell him what to do, no big deal.

But if parents know that their child will not obey then telling him to do something is not only not a good idea and counter productive but it can also be in the category of
ולפני עור לא תתן מכשול.

You as an adult have to be mindful of what the child will do when you tell him abc. By telling him what to do you are making the child in a spot of being chuzpadig. The onus is on you to be careful to not do that.

In my experience, if he is a healthy child otherwise then he will change within a few months of stopping the orders from your end.

Ok, I think I've opened my last can of worms tonight.

Let this sink in.
Good night.

crust

Wed, Nov 18 2020, 11:24 pm

amother [ Pewter ] wrote:

If he is 12 years old and he does all these things you really want to give it one last try before you take him for an evaluation.

So, whats there to lose?

Pick up his coat for 2 weeks.

Close the door for 2 weeks.

Let him stink for 2 weeks.

Talk to each of his siblings individually that you are trying to avoid clashes and that they should not stand next to him for 2 weeks.

Give him the entire cake for 2 weeks.

The main thing is that out of your mouth only positive things come out. And if it won't end positively you don't open your mouth.

2 weeks. How hard is it?

amother

Chocolate

Wed, Nov 18 2020, 11:33 pm

crust wrote:

Quote:

Can you elaborate on the above? Not sure what you mean no telling him a/t. He’s insulting and screaming at me and dh.
Why do you think parents create chutzpah.

I would love to hear more about this. Let's say I have two daughters - one is very obedient and one is very defiant. I feel it's important for the kids to help out with chores. I ask them to help fold the laundry. Daughter A doesn't particularly enjoy it but will do it. Daughter B makes excuses and then has a meltdown if I persist. Later, after dinner, I ask the two sisters to clear the table. Daughter A goes right to it. Daughter B starts whining, she doesn't want to, she doesn't feel good, she has to call her friend first.... every excuse. At bedtime A goes to bed but B refuses, makes loud declarations that she isn't tired. Has a complete temper tantrum when her phone is taken away. Marches around the house being noisy and disruptive so nobody else can sleep. Slams doors, turns on lights.

So my remedy is to leave B alone and don't ask for her help and don't give her a bedtime anymore?

And tell me, how do I explain to Daughter A why she is the only one helping and going to sleep on time when her sister gets to do whatever the heck she likes?

crust

Wed, Nov 18 2020, 11:36 pm

amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:

I really don't have the energy now to respond to ten different imas although all your questions are valid and I have experience with them.

I hope to get back to this thread iyh.

amother

Slateblue

Wed, Nov 18 2020, 11:55 pm

amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:

Omg, I can’t believe I’m reading this. If I wouldn’t know better I’d say you are my husband writing this as I have the same situation going on in my house.
Crust, I am eagerly awaiting your reply. And dd happens to be 12 too.

amother

Teal

Thu, Nov 19 2020, 12:09 am

amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:

I was daughter B. And I was the second class citizen even if I was older. Why can’t you be more like A?! How many times do I have to tell you the same thing? And my parents constantly gave sister A special attention so she shouldn’t feel bad..

amother

Burgundy

Thu, Nov 19 2020, 1:34 am

amother [ Teal ] wrote:

Ok.
Can you elaborate? Not sure what you're trying to say.
Do you feel bad that you were 2nd class? How did you want your parents to react? Do you think it was wrong to give your sister attention for helping and listening to the rules? Or are you advising previous posters to do that as well?

polished

Thu, Nov 19 2020, 2:31 am

amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:

As a recent teen, from a family of girls close together. And a great mother.

Think about how you ask for help and why. Amd who you give attention to for doing it.
The person who cleared up from supper should be lauded amd thanked (she did you a “favour”). B did not do anything, you are indifferent to it, she isn’t bad you still love her but you have nothing to thank her for.
Do not give rewards and prizes for help. Just the next morning say last night I was so happy when A tided up the whole kitchen so sparkling, I put me in such a good mood.

The aim is to create intrinsic motivation for being a decent respectable human. Not so that the chore is done amd children have to do chores.

So no comparing and saying look A so cleaning up. Just “how would we manage without A she is such a pleasure to have around?”
B will join in helping in approximately 3-6 months. Or when A gets married and leaves the house.
Hard to change someone’s character, you can control the friction around it.