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FYI, recovered virus patients ineligible for vaccine

 
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 19 2020, 4:54 pm
It was not tested on previously infected people and it may be dangerous for long haulers. It may eventually be given as a booster shot but we are last on the list of priorities.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 19 2020, 5:04 pm
southernbubby wrote:
It was not tested on previously infected people and it may be dangerous for long haulers. It may eventually be given as a booster shot but we are last on the list of priorities.


Where is this info coming from?
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 19 2020, 5:14 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
Where is this info coming from?


Business Insider
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yksraya




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 19 2020, 5:18 pm
So anyone that has antibodies will not get the vaccine? Or only those who had tested positive?
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 19 2020, 5:21 pm
yksraya wrote:
So anyone that has antibodies will not get the vaccine? Or only those who had tested positive?



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Coronavirus vaccine research and distribution plans overlook an important, growing group: People who already got sick
Aria Bendix 4 hours ago
coronavirus vaccine UK
Kate Bingham, the chair of the UK government's Vaccine Taskforce, starting her Novavax trial at the Royal Free Hospital in London. Kirsty O'Connor/PA Images via Getty Images
US public-health experts aren't sure when Americans who've survived the coronavirus will be eligible for a vaccine.
Some leading trials — including Moderna's — excluded anyone who had a coronavirus infection, so researchers don't yet know how a vaccine would affect those people.
Without that data, experts say, it's unwise to inoculate people who were previously infected, particularly if they have lingering symptoms.
Visit Business Insider's homepage for more stories.
Unlike many Americans, Signe Redfield wasn't comforted by the news that a coronavirus vaccine could soon reach the public.

A roboticist at the Naval Research Laboratory in Washington, DC, Redfield has had COVID-19 symptoms since March. Her fatigue lasted about seven months, her mind continues to feel foggy, and she has trouble sleeping.

But people like her — those who already got sick — could be among the last in line for vaccines. And researchers still don't know what effects the shots might have on them.

In October, an independent group of experts convened by the National Academy of Sciences issued recommendations about the order in which a vaccine should be made available to various groups. The guidelines, which are expected to be adopted by the US government, suggest healthcare workers should get immunized first, followed by older people in nursing homes. But there's no advice for people who were previously infected.

"Many unknowns remain regarding the safety and efficacy of the vaccines in certain populations," the experts wrote. Those populations, they said, include "individuals previously infected with COVID-19."

Moderna and the partnership of Sanofi and GlaxoSmithKline excluded from their trials people who tested positive for the virus in diagnostic or antibody tests. Novavax, too, did not accept anyone who'd been diagnosed or had known exposure. That's primarily because those people might have already developed a robust antibody response and could skew the data.

But the omission means researchers have no idea whether a vaccine would be safe or effective for people who've had COVID-19.

"It's hard for me to have confidence that it's going to be safe for our population," Redfield told Business Insider, referring specifically to people with lingering symptoms. "I am going to be more concerned about exposing my body to another immune challenge."

But people who've gotten the coronavirus might need to get vaccinated eventually, given that scientists don't know how long immunity lasts.

Should people who've had COVID-19 get vaccines?
coronavirus recovery lingering symptoms
A medical staff member monitoring a patient who recovered from the coronavirus at a rehab center in Italy. Marco Di Lauro/Getty Images
Pfizer and Moderna this month announced positive results from their phase-three trials. Pfizer's vaccine was found to be 95% effective in preventing COVID-19, while Moderna's was found to be 94.5% effective. Experts now anticipate that Americans could have widespread access to a vaccine by the spring or summer.

But more than 10 million people in the US face a dilemma in whether to get these shots — and don't know whether they're eligible at all — since about 3% of the population has now survived the coronavirus.

"We want to look at vaccinating patients who have not been infected with COVID who are susceptible," Todd Ellerin, the director of infectious diseases at South Shore Health in Massachusetts, told Business Insider. "The post-COVID patients are not going to be your first, second, third, or fourth tier of groups that you're going to look at to want to vaccinate."

There's also a large group of people who got the virus but weren't aware of it, either because they couldn't get tested or because they were asymptomatic carriers. They'll likely seek out a vaccine.

"Because of the lack of testing, there are many, many people who have had COVID-19 who don't know it," Natalie Lambert, an associate professor of medicine at Indiana University, told Business Insider. "We need to investigate some of these things, along with seeing how people who have not had COVID could be protected by a vaccine."

How long does immunity last?
Immunity to the coronavirus is still one of the most critical, unsolved mysteries of the pandemic. An October study found that COVID-19 patients had a stable antibody response for at least five months. And though it's still awaiting peer review, a recent study from Rockefeller University found that people had enough memory cells to fend off the virus for at least eight months. If memory cells wane slowly, immunity could last several years.

However, there have been several confirmed instances of people getting coronavirus infections twice. So people who were previously infected might eventually require a shot to boost their immune response.

"Survivors will likely need a booster at some point," Ellerin said.

But it's unwise to inoculate these people without more safety data, he added.

"We have to keep our eye on the prize right now," Ellerin said. "Of course patients can get COVID more than once, so I'm not trying to tell you that they'll be excluded from this down the road, but we have a lot more to learn."

Johnson & Johnson coronavirus vaccine clinical trial, volunteer dosed with experimental COVID-19 vaccine
A volunteer participating in Johnson & Johnson's trial of a coronavirus vaccine. Janssen
Long-haul patients face even more worries about getting a shot
Redfield is considered a coronavirus long-hauler: a patient whose symptoms last three weeks or more.

Researchers still aren't sure what portion of people develop these long-term complications. A July report from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that about one-third of coronavirus patients surveyed had not recovered after two or three weeks. An August study estimated that one in 10 coronavirus patients experienced prolonged illness.

Lambert said long-haulers had almost certainly been excluded from vaccine studies so far because of ethical issues.

"It'd be hard to engage a long-hauler in that study if they're having ongoing health problems," she said. "Ethically there'd be big problems with having them take a vaccine, if you're worried about those effects.

"But at the same time, we need to get those answers before we can really recommend that long-haulers or people who had COVID should do certain things or even avoid certain things."

For people with long-lasting symptoms, it's possible that a vaccine could intensify an already aggressive immune response that for many has led to fatigue, muscle aches, trouble breathing, heart palpitations, or difficulty concentrating or sleeping.

Redfield said she probably wouldn't be comfortable getting a vaccine until researchers had time to learn more about long-haulers, which she estimated could take another year.

By then, she said, "I would have more confidence that if there was a bad interaction they would be able to treat it properly."

Some people with coronavirus antibodies have slipped into trials
Pfizer
On November 9, Pfizer announced positive results from its coronavirus vaccine trial. Dado Ruvic/Reuters
Since Moderna did not include people who already had COVID-19 in its clinical trials, the company might have to run more trials to see whether its shot is safe and effective for that group.

Pfizer may already have enough data to figure out the answer. The company's phase-two and phase-three clinical trials didn't exclude people who'd been sick before.

On Wednesday, Pfizer said data from its phase-three trial showed that its vaccine was also 95% effective in participants with a prior coronavirus infection.

Ellerin said further investigation of those results could prove useful, since the sample size is likely small.

"It will be important to look at that group to see how did they respond?" he said. But he added that "this is not the target group that we're looking at first."

Do you have a personal experience with the coronavirus you'd like to share? Or a tip on how your town or community is handling the pandemic? Please email covidtips@businessinsider.com and tell us your story.

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baby12x




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 19 2020, 5:50 pm
I want to know how many of the participants are women and if any of them were pregnant or nursing
Did they release that information?
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ra_mom




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 19 2020, 7:26 pm
Why would I take the vaccine if I've had the virus?
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/1.....nJLpj

People who are still holed up are the ones who are waiting for it first.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 19 2020, 7:33 pm
ra_mom wrote:
Why would I take the vaccine if I've had the virus?
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/1.....nJLpj

People who are still holed up are the ones who are waiting for it first.


Apparently the immunity isn't permanent.
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ra_mom




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 19 2020, 8:01 pm
southernbubby wrote:
Apparently the immunity isn't permanent.

But it's likely to last years. So the first wave should be available for people who are at risk for the virus.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 19 2020, 8:21 pm
ra_mom wrote:
But it's likely to last years. So the first wave should be available for people who are at risk for the virus.


I really hope that it lasts for years. Some people have already had it twice.
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amother




Pewter
 

Post  Thu, Nov 19 2020, 8:27 pm
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/1......html
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amother




Peach
 

Post  Thu, Nov 19 2020, 8:50 pm
So much fear mongering...if the immune response is so robust, and seems consensus is it may last years, why in heaven's name are we being told over and over how nobody is safe? What a crock.
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ra_mom




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 19 2020, 8:51 pm
southernbubby wrote:
I really hope that it lasts for years. Some people have already had it twice.

There are barely a handful of cases. Most of the people who had it twice, actually only had 1 positive, and either another presumed case or a case of positive antibodies- which is known to be wholly unreliable.
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ra_mom




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 19 2020, 8:55 pm
amother [ Peach ] wrote:
So much fear mongering...if the immune response is so robust, and seems consensus is it may last years, why in heaven's name are we being told over and over how nobody is safe? What a crock.

Fauci has been actively trying to fool people throughout this pandemic.
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amother




Lime
 

Post  Thu, Nov 19 2020, 8:57 pm
My friend's friend caught it twice. She works in healthcare and was tested every week, so after recovering, she was testing negative for months and then caught it again, so it's more common than we think unfortunately.
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acemom




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 19 2020, 10:28 pm
Trying to understand though:
Why would a vaccine provide longer immunity than the actual virus?

If someone has recovered from the virus, they shouldn't be needing the vaccine.

Isn't that how vaccines usually work?
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Nov 19 2020, 10:48 pm
acemom wrote:
Trying to understand though:
Why would a vaccine provide longer immunity than the actual virus?

If someone has recovered from the virus, they shouldn't be needing the vaccine.

Isn't that how vaccines usually work?


The vaccine would probably need to be given every year. The claim is that the vaccine immunity is more durable.
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Iymnok




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Nov 20 2020, 2:05 am
It actually wouldn’t surprise me for someone to catch it twice within the first year. It greatly weakens the immune system and the long term memory cells may not be able to trigger a strong enough response.
It would make sense also for a person to be more susceptible to pathogens within the first months after an illness. We also see this after measles.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Nov 20 2020, 9:12 am
Thanks. Interesting and I'll read when I have the time. So I don't know if it mentioned anything about antibodies, I.e. if someone had antibodies but doesn't anymore if they would be eligible.
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Chayalle




 
 
 
 

Post  Fri, Nov 20 2020, 9:15 am
southernbubby wrote:
I really hope that it lasts for years. Some people have already had it twice.


I've heard (from doctor) that people who had it twice usually had some underlying health issue that could affect their immunity.

I wonder if the vaccine will work for them then.
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