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How would things change if clothing and beauty didn't exist?
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avrahamama




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Nov 24 2020, 8:34 am
Elfrida wrote:
Make up and jewelry are not a Jewish thing, but they are very much emphasized in certain communities. To generalize, those are also the communities where one has to 'put together an outfit' every day, rather than just choose what to wear. It would be logical that people in those communities would find it harder to adapt to such a situation, because it is a more important part of their life.

Really though, I think everyone would struggle. Clothing, make up and beuaty aids in various forms have been part of humanity since earliest history. (Even Hashem braided Chava's hair to make her look beautiful before presenting her to Adam.) When something that is an intrinsic part of our nature is taken away from us, people cope because there is no choice, but they struggle, and invent something to fill the void. Recently we have had our intrinsic need for social interaction severely curtailed, and everyone has come up with various alternatives, with varying levels of sucess. Something similar would happen in this hypothetical situation.


I thought makeup and jewelry are very much a jewish thing.

I learned that H braided chavas hair and also adorned her with make up and jewelry (24 pieces of jewelry! Iirc)

Rivka was given jewelry.

The women in mitzrayim would use copper mirrors to do their make-up

That makeup and jewelry are to be used in the context of marriage between husband and wife.

As far as clothing goes. It's not just a protection from climate. Those woods chips in my neighborhood playground would be like torture if not for clothing.

That's why Adam and Chava had skin that was tougher/thicker than what we have now. (At least I think)
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amother




Natural
 

Post Tue, Nov 24 2020, 8:36 am
causemommysaid wrote:
Can we at least wear underwear?

I don't want to share seats with other butts.


I’m imagining a whole bunch of dangling tampon strings
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Elfrida




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Nov 24 2020, 8:44 am
avrahamama wrote:
I thought makeup and jewelry are very much a jewish thing.

I learned that H braided chavas hair and also adorned her with make up and jewelry (24 pieces of jewelry! Iirc)

Rivka was given jewelry.

The women in mitzrayim would use copper mirrors to do their make-up

That makeup and jewelry are to be used in the context of marriage between husband and wife.

As far as clothing goes. It's not just a protection from climate. Those woods chips in my neighborhood playground would be like torture if not for clothing.

That's why Adam and Chava had skin that was tougher/thicker than what we have now. (At least I think)


Make up and jewelry are utilzed within Jewish sources, but that does not make them a specifically Jewish thing. They are common in one form or another to the whole of humanity. They can be utilzed for positive purposes or not. Some communities place a very strong emphasis on make up and jewelry and general presentaion, and that is not particularly Jewish.

Its not clear exactly what jewelry Chava recieved, but its not necessarily the same thing that we would consider jewelry now. You can't quite imagine her with a diamond ring or a string of pearls. And Rivka's nose ring would not be at all acceptable now!
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avrahamama




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Nov 24 2020, 8:48 am
Elfrida wrote:
Make up and jewelry are utilzed within Jewish sources, but that does not make them a specifically Jewish thing. They are common in one form or another to the whole of humanity. They can be utilzed for positive purposes or not. Some communities place a very strong emphasis on make up and jewelry and general presentaion, and that is not particularly Jewish.


Thumbs Up
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DrMom




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Nov 24 2020, 8:49 am
Rappel wrote:
But what if we abandoned any such desires at all? How freeing to consider things only from a functional perspective!

You are basically asking "what if we entirely rewired everybody's brain to erase certain basic biological survival instincts?" That's a huge hypothetical.
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amother




Chartreuse
 

Post Tue, Nov 24 2020, 9:11 am
DrMom wrote:
You are basically asking "what if we entirely rewired everybody's brain to erase certain basic biological survival instincts?" That's a huge hypothetical.


I'd rephrase the question - how would yiddishkeit as we know it now differ? The current version of yiddishkeit involves an awful lot about clothing. Tznius, dress code, etc. Imagine if tznius wouldn't be the main focus of yiddishkeit for women, and the men wouldn't use clothing to identify their associations,. How would that change our society.? No shtreimels, no penguin dress code, no boots (for the Skver group), no black hats, no bekitches, etc. No concerns about fitted clothing, skirt lengths, socks, shoes, sheitel, hair length etc.

Where would our focus be? Would we be focusing on the essence, the internal stuff, instead. Or would we hype up other externals in its stead?
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Elfrida




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Nov 24 2020, 9:30 am
There are a very large number of women for whom tznuis is not the main focus of their yiddishkeit.
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DrMom




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Nov 24 2020, 9:40 am
amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:
I'd rephrase the question - how would yiddishkeit as we know it now differ? The current version of yiddishkeit involves an awful lot about clothing. Tznius, dress code, etc. Imagine if tznius wouldn't be the main focus of yiddishkeit for women, and the men wouldn't use clothing to identify their associations,. How would that change our society.? No shtreimels, no penguin dress code, no boots (for the Skver group), no black hats, no bekitches, etc. No concerns about fitted clothing, skirt lengths, socks, shoes, sheitel, hair length etc.

Where would our focus be? Would we be focusing on the essence, the internal stuff, instead. Or would we hype up other externals in its stead?

I am DL. We don't wear clothing that identifies us as such, except a kipah and headcovering, and tallit katans (how would that work in the OP's nudist colony dream?).

If a garment is modest and looks generally acceptable, it's fair game. I.e., my DH would not wear a Big Bird costume to work, even if it is halachically okay, because it is weird, but nobody cares if we wear red socks vs black socks or blue shirts vs white shirts or polo shorts vs Oxford shirts.

How about we envision that paradigm instead of the communist nudist colony scenario?
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Nov 24 2020, 9:43 am
Elfrida wrote:
Make up and jewelry are not a Jewish thing, but they are very much emphasized in certain communities. To generalize, those are also the communities where one has to 'put together an outfit' every day, rather than just choose what to wear. It would be logical that people in those communities would find it harder to adapt to such a situation, because it is a more important part of their life.

Really though, I think everyone would struggle. Clothing, make up and beuaty aids in various forms have been part of humanity since earliest history. (Even Hashem braided Chava's hair to make her look beautiful before presenting her to Adam.) When something that is an intrinsic part of our nature is taken away from us, people cope because there is no choice, but they struggle, and invent something to fill the void. Recently we have had our intrinsic need for social interaction severely curtailed, and everyone has come up with various alternatives, with varying levels of sucess. Something similar would happen in this hypothetical situation.
I dont think everyone would struggle at all. There are so many people who never use make up or wear jewelry and clothing are literally a means to an end (being able to walk outside).
Yes, for those that wouldnt step outside without "putting their face on" or putting on jewelry, this would shock them to their core, literally.
BUt I think if that was the new normal, people would get used to it.

I have never worn make up and jewelry, well, I think it is annoying at best and painful at worst, so I guess I am already part of the way there. Now clothing.....well, thats a different story.
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amother




Chartreuse
 

Post Tue, Nov 24 2020, 9:44 am
DrMom wrote:
I am DL. We don't wear clothing that identifies us as such, except a kipah and headcovering, and tallit katans (how would that work in the OP's nudist colony dream?).

If a garment is modest and looks generally acceptable, it's fair game. I.e., my DH would not wear a Big Bird costume to work, even if it is halachically okay, because it is weird, but nobody cares if we wear red socks vs black socks or blue shirts vs white shirts or polo shorts vs Oxford shirts.

How about we envision that paradigm instead of the communist nudist colony scenario?


Oh, I would so want that. My community is not of that same mindset, and so much revolves around clothing. I would love for that change in the manner you've described here.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Nov 24 2020, 9:46 am
amother [ Chartreuse ] wrote:
I'd rephrase the question - how would yiddishkeit as we know it now differ? The current version of yiddishkeit involves an awful lot about clothing. Tznius, dress code, etc. Imagine if tznius wouldn't be the main focus of yiddishkeit for women, and the men wouldn't use clothing to identify their associations,. How would that change our society.? No shtreimels, no penguin dress code, no boots (for the Skver group), no black hats, no bekitches, etc. No concerns about fitted clothing, skirt lengths, socks, shoes, sheitel, hair length etc.

Where would our focus be? Would we be focusing on the essence, the internal stuff, instead. Or would we hype up other externals in its stead?
This is definitely not true for every frum Jew. Tzniut is not THE focus for everyone as some here on imamother choose to believe. And as for how men dress, same thing. There are men out there that do not dress to fit in to a certain walk of frum life.
And you know what? The people that I know who are not focused on tzniut or dress code ARE in fact focused on more important things. And those things are so much deeper and to the core of who a person is, than the way one dresses.
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mizle10




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Nov 24 2020, 9:51 am
I would be very very sad in your world. I like getting dressed, I like wearing makeup, I like putting myself together, I like shopping.
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nchr




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Nov 24 2020, 9:52 am
Animals even have beauty standards, so not sure how human's could not.
That's more practically speaking.
Even yiddishkeit wise, beauty is a thing.
That doesn't mean makeup isn't an evil.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Nov 24 2020, 9:54 am
nchr wrote:
Animals even have beauty standards, so not sure how human's could not.
That's more practically speaking.
Even yiddishkeit wise, beauty is a thing.
That doesn't mean makeup isn't an evil.
First off, can you explain this? ANd second of all, beauty does not equal make up. One can be beautiful without having ever put on make up.
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nchr




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Nov 24 2020, 9:56 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
First off, can you explain this? ANd second of all, beauty does not equal make up. One can be beautiful without having ever put on make up.


Yes, I agree with you. I was addressing other sentiments on this thread.
Animals, especially birds, make themselves more beautiful or attract others with their colors, in order to mate.
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amother




Plum
 

Post Tue, Nov 24 2020, 10:12 am
Society can have beauty standards without having such over-emphasized and restrictive beauty standards.
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MaddieC




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Nov 24 2020, 3:37 pm
MiriFr wrote:
How bout masks?


Because of the pandemic, masks would exist as they are not technically clothes. Everything else would be bare though!
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MaddieC




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Nov 24 2020, 3:39 pm
Elfrida wrote:
Make up and jewelry are not a Jewish thing, but they are very much emphasized in certain communities. To generalize, those are also the communities where one has to 'put together an outfit' every day, rather than just choose what to wear. It would be logical that people in those communities would find it harder to adapt to such a situation, because it is a more important part of their life.

Really though, I think everyone would struggle. Clothing, make up and beuaty aids in various forms have been part of humanity since earliest history. (Even Hashem braided Chava's hair to make her look beautiful before presenting her to Adam.) When something that is an intrinsic part of our nature is taken away from us, people cope because there is no choice, but they struggle, and invent something to fill the void. Recently we have had our intrinsic need for social interaction severely curtailed, and everyone has come up with various alternatives, with varying levels of sucess. Something similar would happen in this hypothetical situation.


How would you cope with this sudden change? How long do you think it would take you to get used to it?
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MaddieC




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Nov 24 2020, 3:42 pm
causemommysaid wrote:
Can we at least wear underwear?

I don't want to share seats with other butts.


Nope! No underwear (or even sandals.) I guess people would have to put something down before they sit.
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professor




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Nov 24 2020, 3:42 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
This question is a bit out there so please forgive me. Imagine you wake up tomorrow to find that all the clothing, beauty products, and adornments have disappeared from the world, never to be remade. Instead of applying makeup in the morning, billions of women to out into the world baring the face they woke up with no matter the situation. Instead of putting together outfits for the day, we live our lives in bare feet and unclothed bodies, lacking jewelry or hair products as well. Aside from having to deal with cold weather (just pretend everyone adapts to this), how would society change? How would the Jewish community react to these changes, and how would you deal with them personally?
Hi

No clothing?? Can we at least wear jumpsuits?
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