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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Nov 24 2020, 8:45 am
May we go מחיל אל חיל! BeH we'll finish Pesachim just in time for Pesach Very Happy
Hope to come back later and add some ideas...
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imorethanamother




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Nov 26 2020, 2:41 am
I really don’t get why suddenly we don’t believe women about bedikas chametz when women are perfectly trusted to make kosher food and to make the entire Pesach in general.
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amother




Tan
 

Post Thu, Nov 26 2020, 8:29 am
imorethanamother wrote:
I really don’t get why suddenly we don’t believe women about bedikas chametz when women are perfectly trusted to make kosher food and to make the entire Pesach in general.


Why not? It's perfectly kosher to appoint one's wife for bedikas chametz. If she doesn't have a husband there's no question about making it all by herself and being trusted.
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amother




Indigo
 

Post Thu, Nov 26 2020, 8:51 am
I wrote this last night, but I didn’t want to send it till the morning. (Guess you beat me to it, Aylat.)


Hope you don’t mind me starting this one, Aylat, but I have a question on Daf 4.

Since there is a כלל that עד אחד נאמן באיסורים, and women are generally included in that type of עדות - why should women not be trusted regarding בדיקת חמץ? (This is not a formal situation, which requires 2 עדים. . . )

(Now I don’t get a color LOL )



Niw I’ll have a color, after all . . . Wink
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amother




Indigo
 

Post Thu, Nov 26 2020, 9:25 am
At least Indigo is better than anything I’ve gotten till now . . . LOL
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imorethanamother




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Nov 27 2020, 2:25 pm
amother [ Tan ] wrote:
Why not? It's perfectly kosher to appoint one's wife for bedikas chametz. If she doesn't have a husband there's no question about making it all by herself and being trusted.


Did you read the daf? There IS a question.
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imorethanamother




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Nov 27 2020, 2:29 pm
amother [ Indigo ] wrote:
I wrote this last night, but I didn’t want to send it till the morning. (Guess you beat me to it, Aylat.)


Hope you don’t mind me starting this one, Aylat, but I have a question on Daf 4.

Since there is a כלל that עד אחד נאמן באיסורים, and women are generally included in that type of עדות - why should women not be trusted regarding בדיקת חמץ? (This is not a formal situation, which requires 2 עדים. . . )

(Now I don’t get a color LOL )



Niw I’ll have a color, after all . . . Wink


Rabbi Lebowitz said because anything that would require more work to be done might be something these groups would lie about that it was already done. And he said that today, this wouldn’t apply, considering how women do much more than required for pesach cleaning.

The answer didn’t help.

I love how women will lie to get out of doing a Mitzvah, but if a landlord didn’t do the bedikas chametz before handing over the keys, it won’t invalidate the rental agreement because men love doing mitzvahs.

And no, Indigo, I don’t want a support group. I want answers. I’ll never get them. The last thing I need is more quotations from the Moons Lost Light, lol.
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amother




Puce
 

Post Fri, Nov 27 2020, 3:12 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
Rabbi Lebowitz said because anything that would require more work to be done might be something these groups would lie about that it was already done. And he said that today, this wouldn’t apply, considering how women do much more than required for pesach cleaning.

The answer didn’t help.

I love how women will lie to get out of doing a Mitzvah, but if a landlord didn’t do the bedikas chametz before handing over the keys, it won’t invalidate the rental agreement because men love doing mitzvahs.

And no, Indigo, I don’t want a support group. I want answers. I’ll never get them. The last thing I need is more quotations from the Moons Lost Light, lol.


And aren't we trusted in regard to Niddah?
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imorethanamother




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Nov 27 2020, 3:17 pm
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
And aren't we trusted in regard to Niddah?


Well, we are because it would be hard NOT to. Practically speaking, who else would check? Lol.

I just don't understand how the bedikah itself, when you've been so busy for ages and ages actually checking for chometz and getting rid of it, would be something you wouldn't trust to women.

The only thing I can think of is that because it's the WOMEN who've been doing this, this entire time, you need a fresh pair of eyes. It's easy to say, 'yeah, yeah, I DID that room.' If the gemara had just been honest like, "Hey, we men have been doing nothing for a month now, it's time to inspect what the ladies have been up to," I would have appreciated it.
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amother




Indigo
 

Post Fri, Nov 27 2020, 3:36 pm
imorethanamother wrote:
Rabbi Lebowitz said because anything that would require more work to be done might be something these groups would lie about that it was already done. And he said that today, this wouldn’t apply, considering how women do much more than required for pesach cleaning.

The answer didn’t help.

I love how women will lie to get out of doing a Mitzvah, but if a landlord didn’t do the bedikas chametz before handing over the keys, it won’t invalidate the rental agreement because men love doing mitzvahs.

And no, Indigo, I don’t want a support group. I want answers. I’ll never get them. The last thing I need is more quotations from the Moons Lost Light, lol.


I’ve seen all this before (including the Yerushalmi and others), and I’ve seen where the Aruch Hashulchan writes that it would not apply today, because nowadays women are even more meticulous than men about cleaning and getting rid of chametz before Pesach. That answer doesn’t help for me either Sad

In addition - AFAIK women are obligated in not having chametz over Pesach. How can someone be obligated in something, which they can’t be trusted to do??? Are there any similar cases, which do not involve women? (Sadly, I can think of some others, which do seem to apply to women. . .)

I want answers too - but so far despite intense effort and searching, I have not been able to find them. (No - The Moon’s Lost Light and Circle, Arrow, Spiral, and similar don’t do it for me, either. I do think, however, that those who are satisfied with those types of answers would have no need to join the group, which would be for those of us who are familiar, but still uncomfortable with all that . . . ) No pressure to join any group - if it will not work for you. The purpose, as stated in that thread is to provide a safe space for those of us, who want/need to discuss these issues without bringing up issues, of which others are unaware (or unbothered). It will also keep me from hijacking this (and other similar) threads (which I have been trying not to do) . . . Wink
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amother




Indigo
 

Post Fri, Nov 27 2020, 3:37 pm
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
And aren't we trusted in regard to Niddah?


Yes. That is the source for עד אחד נאמן באיסורים. (The apparent contradiction is the reason for the question.)
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Nov 29 2020, 4:01 am
imorethanamother wrote:
Well, we are because it would be hard NOT to. Practically speaking, who else would check? Lol.

I just don't understand how the bedikah itself, when you've been so busy for ages and ages actually checking for chometz and getting rid of it, would be something you wouldn't trust to women.

The only thing I can think of is that because it's the WOMEN who've been doing this, this entire time, you need a fresh pair of eyes. It's easy to say, 'yeah, yeah, I DID that room.' If the gemara had just been honest like, "Hey, we men have been doing nothing for a month now, it's time to inspect what the ladies have been up to," I would have appreciated it.


AIUI in the time of the Gemara the bedika really was done just the night of erev Pesach. Nobody was cleaning for a month beforehand - even the wealthy had much fewer possessions than we have nowadays - a couple of hours was all that was needed to check the entire house. R' Lebowitz saying that it wouldn't apply nowadays when normally the woman has extensively checked the house beforehand makes sense in that context.

However עד אחד נאמן באיסורים so I totally don't understand why the Gemara even has a question on this.

(Btw I have done בדיקת חמץ myself when my husband has been on shift the night of erev Pesach. Though I hate doing it - my attitude is that I have been cleaning for 2 weeks and erev Pesach is my night off. But I'd prefer to do בדיקת חמץ myself and have him home for Seder night. (The reason the advance cleaning is on me though is because my husband works crazy hours, not because he wouldn't do it.))
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Nov 29 2020, 4:05 am
imorethanamother wrote:
Rabbi Lebowitz said because anything that would require more work to be done might be something these groups would lie about that it was already done. And he said that today, this wouldn’t apply, considering how women do much more than required for pesach cleaning.

The answer didn’t help.

I love how women will lie to get out of doing a Mitzvah, but if a landlord didn’t do the bedikas chametz before handing over the keys, it won’t invalidate the rental agreement because men love doing mitzvahs.



What is R' Lebowitz's source that these groups would lie to get out of doing work? Doesn't say that in the Gemara. Very upsetting interpretation. But not an internal contradiction to the Gemara's statement about loving doing mitzvot (which btw I really liked).
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Nov 29 2020, 4:07 am
imorethanamother wrote:

And no, Indigo, I don’t want a support group. I want answers. I’ll never get them. The last thing I need is more quotations from the Moons Lost Light, lol.


I don't understand how the support group would work, Indigo? A forum where we can vent without posters telling us we have bad marriages Rolling Eyes and without upsetting people who don't have these questions?

I want answers, but at the moment I am more in the place of collecting questions. Building up evidence maybe lol.

ETA sorry I checked your thread and saw more posts there. Don't want to derail here.
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amother




Orange
 

Post Sun, Nov 29 2020, 5:31 am
I'm a little late to the party, but just learned through Daf 4 (on Sefaria) and am wondering what lines you find objectionable.

The Gemara is clear that although certain categories of people are generally not considered reliable as witnesses, they are believed for the search for chametz.

Unless I am misunderstanding, the flow of the daf is:

- continuation of discussion on precision of language
- discussion on the time of the bedika (deadline for benefitting from chametz, zerizin makdimin, candlelight, studying Torah at time of bedika)
- whose responsibility it is to search a home which is rented (main body of our discussion):
- rejected: whoever rents it is obligated in all of its mitzvos (the proof was from mezuzah, but that can't be used as a proof because an uninhabited home is not obligated in mezuzah anyhow, whereas an uninhabited home IS obligated in the search for chametz)
- If it was rented before 14 Nissan (when obligation begins), then the obligation is on the renter; if after it began obligation is on the owner.
- So if it was rented ON 14 Nissan, can we assume the owner fulfilled his obligation, and the home has been searched.
- We explain that women are considered trustworthy in this, even though they typically cannot be eidim.
- Rejected: It's because everyone is considered a Chaver in this, who takes care of things promptly. (no proof)
- Rejected: It is automatically assumed searched. (why does it say "all believed," then, instead of "houses considered searched)
- Rejected: Never assumed searched unless stated otherwise.
- Conclusion: Generally assumed searched. If there's a reason to think otherwise, all are believed (including women) that it was.
- Could this be a case for a Mekach Ta'us?

IOW, the obligation is the owner's, and all are believed in saying he did it, even if they cannot usually provide eidus.
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Nov 29 2020, 6:23 am
amother [ Orange ] wrote:
I'm a little late to the party, but just learned through Daf 4 (on Sefaria) and am wondering what lines you find objectionable.

The Gemara is clear that although certain categories of people are generally not considered reliable as witnesses, they are believed for the search for chametz.

Unless I am misunderstanding, the flow of the daf is:

- continuation of discussion on precision of language
- discussion on the time of the bedika (deadline for benefitting from chametz, zerizin makdimin, candlelight, studying Torah at time of bedika)
- whose responsibility it is to search a home which is rented (main body of our discussion):
- rejected: whoever rents it is obligated in all of its mitzvos (the proof was from mezuzah, but that can't be used as a proof because an uninhabited home is not obligated in mezuzah anyhow, whereas an uninhabited home IS obligated in the search for chametz)
- If it was rented before 14 Nissan (when obligation begins), then the obligation is on the renter; if after it began obligation is on the owner.
- So if it was rented ON 14 Nissan, can we assume the owner fulfilled his obligation, and the home has been searched.
- We explain that women are considered trustworthy in this, even though they typically cannot be eidim.
- Rejected: It's because everyone is considered a Chaver in this, who takes care of things promptly. (no proof)
- Rejected: It is automatically assumed searched. (why does it say "all believed," then, instead of "houses considered searched)
- Rejected: Never assumed searched unless stated otherwise.
- Conclusion: Generally assumed searched. If there's a reason to think otherwise, all are believed (including women) that it was.
- Could this be a case for a Mekach Ta'us?

IOW, the obligation is the owner's, and all are believed in saying he did it, even if they cannot usually provide eidus.


You're right, so maybe this is a sub-question on women and עדות ie why does the Gemara say אפילו נשים and we are in the same category as עבדים, קטנים. IOW part of that wider question. Unless I'm missing a point. Indigo, imorethanamother, weigh in?
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amother




Indigo
 

Post Sun, Nov 29 2020, 7:44 am
Aylat wrote:
What is R' Lebowitz's source that these groups would lie to get out of doing work? Doesn't say that in the Gemara. Very upsetting interpretation. But not an internal contradiction to the Gemara's statement about loving doing mitzvot (which btw I really liked).


I don’t listen to R’ Lebowitz, but I think there is a Yerushalmi about this, which gives the reason as women being lazy. I will see if I can find it.


ETA:

פסחים ד
אמר להו רב נחמן בר יצחק תניתוה הכל נאמנים על ביעור חמץ אפילו נשים אפילו עבדים אפילו קטנים מאי טעמא מהימני

Rosh on Pesachim 1:3
תניא הכל נאמנים על בדיקת ביעור חמץ אפילו נשים אפילו עבדים ואפילו קטנים משום דבדיקת חמץ. דרבנן והימנינהו רבנן בדרבנן ובירושל' פליגי איכא מ"ד לא תתני נשים לפי שהן עצלניות והן בודקות כל שהוא.


Notice there doesn’t appear to be an objection to עבדים or קטנים - only נשים.
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imorethanamother




 
 
 
 

Post Tue, Dec 01 2020, 2:24 am
Aylat wrote:
What is R' Lebowitz's source that these groups would lie to get out of doing work? Doesn't say that in the Gemara. Very upsetting interpretation. But not an internal contradiction to the Gemara's statement about loving doing mitzvot (which btw I really liked).


Tosfos here discusses that women are נאמן in a דרבנן. And for a דאוריתא, they’re only trusted when there is no tirchah. Then the Rush who quotes the Yerushalmi that we are lazy and shouldn’t be trusted. The Shulchan Aruch disagrees with the Yerushalmi, and as Indigo said, the Aruch Hashulchan also disagrees and says it’s a matter of chazakah and therefore things have changed.
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Dec 06 2020, 4:22 am
amother [ Indigo ] wrote:
I don’t listen to R’ Lebowitz, but I think there is a Yerushalmi about this, which gives the reason as women being lazy. I will see if I can find it.


ETA:

פסחים ד
אמר להו רב נחמן בר יצחק תניתוה הכל נאמנים על ביעור חמץ אפילו נשים אפילו עבדים אפילו קטנים מאי טעמא מהימני

Rosh on Pesachim 1:3
תניא הכל נאמנים על בדיקת ביעור חמץ אפילו נשים אפילו עבדים ואפילו קטנים משום דבדיקת חמץ. דרבנן והימנינהו רבנן בדרבנן ובירושל' פליגי איכא מ"ד לא תתני נשים לפי שהן עצלניות והן בודקות כל שהוא.


Notice there doesn’t appear to be an objection to עבדים or קטנים - only נשים.


Thank you Sad
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Aylat




 
 
 
 

Post Sun, Dec 06 2020, 10:23 am
Not managing to keep up with posting thoughts on this thread. Here's a question from yesterday.
פסחים יד
"רבי חנינא סגן הכהנים אומר אמימיהם של כהנים...הוסיף ר' עקיבא ואמר מימיהם של כהנים..."
R' Chanina isn't telling over a halacha he learned from his rav or a סברא, he's testifying about the actual practice of the כהנים based on his years of experience. Why is R' Akiva mentioned in this context? What experience does he have with the practices of the כהונה?
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