How do poor people afford camp??

amother

Natural

Thu, Nov 26 2020, 3:44 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

I'm seeing from these replies that nobody seems to understand the definition of the word "poor".

Yes I was a poor girl that went to camp we didn’t have money for nothing no food or clothing and the rent was always back logged. But I worked in camp and went and nope I didn’t stand out as the poor girl.

bernadette

Thu, Nov 26 2020, 3:46 pm

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

Personally I grew up "poor" so to speak I went as a mothers helper. I was a second class citizen and totally hated it. I had friends who were also "poor" but their families scraped together money for them to go a few summers. I also know families that send 1 or 2 of their kids and switch each year so they all get a chance. People do what works for them.

I used to go as a waitress.
I didn’t feel like a 2nd class citizen. I didn’t love the job, but it was the only way I could go.
My children will soon be camp-stage. I hope our financial situation improves, otherwise, it they want to go, they ll have to get a job while in camp.

amother

Aqua

Thu, Nov 26 2020, 3:47 pm

Amarante wrote:

Are you serious or just making fun.

If you are poor you don't generally have several thousand dollars for lots of things including camp.

If camp is necessary because both parents are working and so is in lieu of childcare because there is no school, that is a different issue although a genuinely poor person would have to find some form of less expensive camp.

I think most people would agree that if you can afford several thousand dollars for camp, you are not poor by any rational definition of what being poor is.

I assumed the op is referring to day camp and not sleepaway camp. I'm not sure what daycamps go for in communities like boro park and williamsburg that have many poor families. I could be mistaken, but I think the overwhelming majority of these often large families send their kids to camp. I'm curious myself how they pull this off.

In my area (5towns) day camp is more expensive than school. Maybe in these communities day camps are the same price on a monthly basis as school.

Amarante

Thu, Nov 26 2020, 4:08 pm

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

I disagree. I think what Loveable wrote is 100% accurate.
Camp becomes a "necessity" because parents work and need childcare or because there's nothing to do in the city.
Healthy food (like salmon for example)becomes a "necessity " because even poor ppl need to eat healthy.
Living in a house versus a 3 br basement is a " necessity " because we need living space.
Poor ppl that cant afford food and shelter are for the most part non existant nowadays thanx to organizations like tomchei shabbos, government help and the many gemachim in our communities!
It is a question of priorities!

Again what you are discussing isn’t poverty.

Salmon isn’t a necessity. Protein of some sort is a necessity but there are inexpensive forms of protein which people buy.

If you are poor, you would feel lucky to not be living in your car or in a tiny apartment. My cleaning woman is poor and raised three children and a niece in a one bedroom apartment. A three bedroom basement would have been a fantasy let alone a house. And even my cleaning woman isn’t as poor as some people.

People seem to be confusing true poverty with being middle class and having a budget which enables them to have to make some economic choices.

If you think that a poor person lives in a home and is eating fresh salmon, I would suggest you look around and realize there are people who are actually poor who might literally not have enough food and are lining up for a free meal today.

Lovable

Thu, Nov 26 2020, 4:11 pm

Amarante wrote:

You obviously don't understand what level of 'poor' OP is referencing because according to your definition of 'poor', poor people cannot send their kids to camp, so OP's question isn't even valid

amother

Natural

Thu, Nov 26 2020, 4:17 pm

Amarante wrote:

Were you brought up poor?? I was and it was pure poverty I worked from the age of 10 to buy my own stuff my own pads I had to buy. We didn’t have a car at times cause there was no gas money. Pretzels were supper cause that’s what was in the house thanks god for tomchei Shabbos. We moved 5x from one dump to the next cause my parents were always back logged in rent and usually we got sent out at a time. But I went to camp with a smile and I never felt second class.

Amarante

Thu, Nov 26 2020, 4:18 pm

Lovable wrote:

You obviously don't understand what level of 'poor' OP is referencing because according to your definition of 'poor', poor people cannot send their kids to camp, so OP's question isn't even valid

OP was questioning how people who were eligible for free lunch could afford camp.

In general people with a low enough income to not be able to afford food for their children are poor.

If people are wondering how middle class people can afford camp, then it does become an issue of priorities in terms of how discretionary income is used.

I think there is confusion between being objectively poor and feeling poor because one sees wealthier people around and compares themselves to that standard.

This issue has been discussed quite a bit. In general secular people tend to live in neighborhoods with those who are more or less economically equal. Many frum people live in communities where there is every level of income so middle class people or those who would be considered middle class think of themselves as poor because they can’t afford the luxuries of those around them who are actually rich or at the very least upper middle class.

Amarante

Thu, Nov 26 2020, 4:22 pm

amother [ Natural ] wrote:

I was middle class but not upper middle class and we didn’t go to camp.

If your parents chose to feed you pretzels for dinner and get evicted for non payment of rent in order to send you to camp, I find that to be a strange set of priorities. But that is obviously just my opinion. Smile

amother

Natural

Thu, Nov 26 2020, 4:25 pm

Amarante wrote:

I went to camp and worked there and the trips I paid for with my own money. My parents didn’t put out money for me. I’m just saying it’s possible to go even if poor.

amother

Lavender

Thu, Nov 26 2020, 4:36 pm

I grew up poor. Not as poor as previous amother. But think living pay check to pay check and checks bouncing.

I never went to sleep away camp. I worked in day camp every summer the entire summer. And I babysat all year long. I needed the money to pay for school activities and shabbos clothes, hair cuts, tights, underwear etc. My parents paid for my school uniforms thank G-d.

amother

Amethyst

Thu, Nov 26 2020, 4:37 pm

Amarante wrote:

a poor person won't be living in a big appartment and send to camp and eat fresh salmon...that was exactly my point but they'll chose one thing that they make a priority to pay for!
Some ppl like other poster reported will eat pretzel and send to camp, or some ppl will live in tiny appartment but buy salmon once in a while...
The poverty you are describing with the help available is dysfunctional nowadays!

Amarante

Thu, Nov 26 2020, 4:45 pm

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

I don’t know how you think that there still isn’t extreme levels of poverty still in the US.

Maybe an objectively poor person will make a decision to buy a special toy for the child but there is no definition of poverty that would include a person who has several thousand dollars available for camp or for any other option including home purchases in lieu of a basement rental with three bedrooms.

amother

Amethyst

Thu, Nov 26 2020, 4:50 pm

Amarante wrote:

Yes I totally agree to the bolded! I was not including paying thousands for camp!
There are cheaper options to go to camp like it was mentioned upthread!
As far as extreme poverty, I do think that the level you are describing borders on dysfunctional (not sure about regular population but) for sure in Jewish community!

Amarante

Thu, Nov 26 2020, 5:23 pm

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

I don't know because really the only thing I know about extreme poverty among frum community is from imamother because I don't know anyone personally with that level of poverty. I do know people, of course, who have to make tough economic decisions.

However - at least from threads I have read on imamother - there are extremely poor families who aren't deciding how to spend their extra thousands of dollars. I remember a thread because it was so heartbreaking about someone who couldn't afford socks for her family. And others in which there is no food or enough for basic clothing and I suspect those families aren't saving to afford camp or other multi-thousand dollar expenditures.

I don't know what you mean by level of dysfunction. If a family with a lot of children is trying to exist on poverty level income or near poverty level, that doesn't mean they are dysfunctional. Of course there are people (frum as well as secular) who are impoverished because of some form of mental or physical issues that prevent them from working.

And to bring it back - day camp for working parents is like child care and someone who is objectively poor might need some form of day camp in the summer.

amother

Emerald

Thu, Nov 26 2020, 5:47 pm

Ok. I'll bite.

I grew up in a large family. We had no money for anything extra. Gemach clothing, family trips were to the park or zoo on a free day. Meat was only in the cholent and for Yom Tov.

We got to go to camp as a camper one summer for 1 half only. We went back as a waitress (we had to pay, but it was cheaper), counselor and lifeguard.

My mother called the camp and got a reduced rate.

My brothers went for a full summer once yeshiva daycamp wasnt an option anymore. My mother bargained with them as well.

bernadette

Thu, Nov 26 2020, 6:04 pm

Hashem_n_Farfel wrote:

Yup we are poor but somehow my husband gives me $ to spend on clothing and shoes for me and my son only once in a while. Like every 3-6 months depending.

We get 940 combined a week and most of that is saved up for 1600$ rent once a month and phone and electricity and gas bill. I don’t know the specifics bc my husband deals with it as I get very overwhelmed with numbers. Plus groceries. Every trip to the grocery we spend around 30-45$ for shabbos and like 25-30$ weekdays.

We’re literally lucky if we have 150$ left....sometimes we pay late (a week late usually) bc we didn’t have enough money. BH we have a kind understanding landlord and his wife. Hashem should bless them with long life.

And unlike most people we do not have parents or shvers or shviggers to support us.

Money doesn’t buy happiness....

How many ppl do you know who are supported by parents/shvigger? I maybe have 1 friend who gets financial help from her shvigger.