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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Teenagers and Older children
Mikva: Field trip for a class of 12 yo bnot mitzva?
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2008, 7:40 am
One of the most phenomenal women I know told me that when she was a teenager (I don't know the age), her teacher took her class to a mikvah. It was only thanks to that, that she knew about Taharas Hamishpacha, and wanted to keep this mitzvah when she got married, and did.

so maybe the age depends, but at the right age it's a positive thing. Personally, since I was 12, my mother took me Erev Yom Kippur to the mikvah. Different association for sure, but at a later age I did know about mikvah in the context of TH without being told. (I read everything in the house, so eventually I found those booklets. Wink)

However, the secrecy about this mitzvah is at times inappropriate, because even (not completely off the derech) frum girls who get involved with boys against their community's norms, and without their parents knowledge , don't know the right Jewish way, and the sanctity of relations in the right context, in marriage. If they knew, they would have a chance, to be able to resist the temptations better. There are plenty of such girls, and they are not served by keeping the mitzvah of TH a secret.
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2008, 7:43 am
I also think it's kind of funny that the boys learn these concepts when learning Gemara; there are always the inevitable references, even if they are just glossed over, but girls, to whom this mitzvah will play such an important role in their life shouldn't even know about the mikvah's existence? Scratching Head
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Seraph




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2008, 7:50 am
Crayon210 wrote:
cassandra wrote:
Girls going through puberty are dealing with so many changes in reality, why burden them with something that really is irrelevant?


And something that's frightening for no reason. For a twelve-year-old to think about a woman 'seeing her naked' while she goes into mikvah (even though she puts the robe up, yeah yeah) is downright scary. It's something most women outgrow by the time they're kallahs or shortly thereafter, but I think that's one of the most uncomfortable aspects of mikvah for an adolescent!

Actually, I think opposite.
I think my first mikva experience woulda been easier if the idea wasnt thrust upon me at 18 yo, right before my wedding.
If I grew up with the idea, then maybe it woulda been easier.

(Not that I think that a 12 yo should go to the mikva, but rather answering the "scariness of being seen naked" aspect.)
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su7kids




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2008, 8:01 am
I think its a good idea for MO kids and even non frum kids. Firstly, it helps them to understand, at an age when they're beginning to think s.xually, that this is something that is special,a nd has a special place and a special time, and don't "disregard" your body.

I think that some of them stop going to a Jewish school or Hebrew school and then you don't have the opportunity to teach them again.

I know that the Lubavitcher Rebbe said that in Chabad girls' schools they should teach the halochas of Taharas HaMishpocha in 12th grade, because many of the girls leave the school and don't come back until they're older.

Probably not a Bais Rikva type of school, though.

I know that our Orthodox School, the bas mitzvah girls get to see the mikvah. They definitely don't dip the girls, and it is a wonderful opportunity to explain the tznius aspects of it to girls who are just beginning to be familiar with their bodies.
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2008, 8:08 am
I told dd about this thread and she now informs me, she's 26, that she was also taken as part of the BM program in Elon Moreh. No notes to Mom to expect questions. From the horse's mouth her first reaction was forget it, I'm not coming here.
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Zus




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2008, 8:40 am
Imaonwheels wrote:
From the horse's mouth her first reaction was forget it, I'm not coming here.


Was she taken to a nice mivke or one who looks run-down? I think that the MOST IMPORTANT thing would be how it's presented.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2008, 8:41 am
[Posting as amother simply because this is private and personal.]

I was raised in a "traditional" conservadox household, where my father was more ritually observant than my mother. Between Hebrew school, Jewish camp and shul, I certainly knew about davening, the basics of keeping kosher, Shabbat, holidays, etc. However, I never would have guessed that TH or mikvaot existed, if I hadn't been given the book "To be a Jew" at my Bat Mitzvah. I was shocked when I first read about it, but the idea stuck in my head. Years later, I took it upon myself to find a mikvah in my city and arrange to dunk before my wedding. Since none of the women in the family ever mentioned this, nor did my rabbi at the time, I may not have known about this if it weren't for finding out when I was 12.

Recently, the mikvah in our community was renovated. The Chabad shaliach didn't want to simply have a nicer mikvah - he wanted to use the opportunity to focus on the mikvah. There was a huge grand re-opening celebration, and we brought our kids. Everyone took a walk through the facilities. My girls don't yet know the specifics of why women go - I think I just said that ladies go right before their wedding and then go 1x/month - but they know it's there, it's part of the community and it's not a complete mystery to them.

There is a range with the MO community, but my guess would be that if girls aren't living in a very sheltered community, they will have heard something about the facts of life/relations by the time they are 12.
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2008, 8:56 am
Heard? Getting out of the house when you have older kids, and piles of boys, can be very difficult. To run across the idea in a book or such is not like having the whole idea opened up. I remember that 6th grade was the time kids made a joke about any boy/girl issue. Davka because it is so uncomfortable they have to wisecrack.

I believe in introducing these things in a way most girls will be comfortable and never before they can deal with it maturely. Girls nearing the end of HS have to hear it exists and you can talk to Mom or any adult woman you feel comfortable with. With some families parents unfortunately may be less comfortable than the kids.
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MommyLuv




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2008, 9:01 am
If girls in public school are getting s-x education at 12, which most are,
why not show them the way it really is meant to be? It sounds like a beautiful idea.


OTOH, For frum girls, maybe a seminary trip makes more sense...
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miriamnechama




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2008, 9:13 am
right now I don't have girls so I can't really say what I'd do. but in my community there is no such a thing as girls going even on erev yom kippur.
I never knew when my F. mother went and if she went erev yom kippur. it also taht the rabonim by us don't allow girls to go erev yom kippur.

2. someone mentioned about being naed. ina course I took recently teh teacher explained taht one needs to explain toa kalla that this is רצון ה ie this is what Hashem want's go explain that toa 12 year old for sure it's scary... but this is part of gettinmg married so why expose it earlier.

looking back I feel real chaval that I didn't get the proper hadracha that I should have.. I really think it would have made a huge difference. I also found teh whole concept hard righbefore the wedding. why to bother with bedika why teh bath etc... ok after 10 years I'm used to it.

oh and teh language barrier then was terrible... also somethingto think about.
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amother


 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2008, 9:27 am
Firstly, I grew up what many of you seem to feel is MO & I clearly remember, in retrspect, my mom going to mikvah. Of course didn't know what it was at the time but it was in a bad area & when we were too young to stay home alone dad had to pick her up with us.
Next, I do not think it would be a prob for my 13 yr old to go. She & her group of friends are quite perceptive. Just last night she was telling me & dh that parents think kids don't know anything. Her friend was sitting at the table & the mom asked dd to pass s/t to dh. DD said "you are sitting right across from him" Mom said she was being chutzpahdik, just pass it. DD was laughing cause she knew why the mom & dad weren't passing things. So even in Bais yaacov type households gotta know your own kid.these girls have healthy understanding of what is going on (note my dd felt comfortable telling both me & dh this story) Like others have said for some its good for others not. Would prefer scholl left it alone till 12th grade for the sake of the girls who aren't ready to know this stuff.

sorry for being amother but didn't think in this particular post name should be mentioned
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miriamnechama




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2008, 9:51 am
amother yo remind me of 2 stories from my course.
1 when a kalla was learning teh harchakos and the inyan of heker she smiled and laugheda bit.. teh teacher didn't get why so she said "oh now I know what that cell phone was doingon teh table all teh time"

another story I heard was a downstarir neighbour agirl always heard beds being moved back and forth at ceratin times.. and she one fine day either asked teh daughter or maybe teh mother itself "why are you constantly moving beds?" well in israel wher you hear everything yo have to be extra careful...
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2008, 12:09 pm
Crayon210 wrote:
cassandra wrote:
Girls going through puberty are dealing with so many changes in reality, why burden them with something that really is irrelevant?


And something that's frightening for no reason. For a twelve-year-old to think about a woman 'seeing her naked' while she goes into mikvah (even though she puts the robe up, yeah yeah) is downright scary. It's something most women outgrow by the time they're kallahs or shortly thereafter, but I think that's one of the most uncomfortable aspects of mikvah for an adolescent!


ditto. It scared me until my kalla mikve. And BH I wasn't told about bedikos before kalla lessons. That was a nightmare for me.
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TzenaRena




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Feb 28 2008, 1:13 pm
imaonwheels wrote:
I believe in introducing these things in a way most girls will be comfortable and never before they can deal with it maturely.
Perhaps you mean most adults/mothers will be comfortable Wink Personally, my mother was never comfortable telling me anything of a private nature, right up to my chassunah (and many other things). I have to say it didn't help a lot, although it was her fine character and tznius that made this difficult for her. Confused

Each girl will reach that age of maturity you mention individually, so it could be an individual thing, but that age does come,. Getting out of the house? a problem to deal with creatively, but not an excuse for ignoring what could be an important aspect of a girl's knowledge bearing on her spiritual identity and growth.
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