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Lockdown tragedy (suicide mentioned)
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amother
Cyan


 

Post Thu, Dec 03 2020, 11:35 am
gold21 wrote:
Wait- so you asked me a personal question- what are my credentials- but I can't ask her if she has school age children?

Also, you're anonymous. Doubt you could pull this off under your screen name.


Because it’s so obvious from what you were saying that you don’t work in healthcare. I asked knowing what your answer would be. That wasn’t apparent?
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amother
Purple


 

Post Thu, Dec 03 2020, 11:35 am
gold21 wrote:
The question is relevant.

OK. So how are your kids doing with distance learning? Did they struggle in school socially (bullying, etc) prior to lockdown?

Recognize that diff people experience things differently, and that your perception is colored by your own experiences.

Question might be relevant but you've asked too many personal questions of me and volunteered none of your own answers to them.

I recognized that virtual school isn't going to work for us and went for proper homeschooling instead. It's much more stable, flexible, and healthy than spending all day in front of a computer or on the phone. I'm on FB and I know that there are many families who chose the same route for the same reasons, so it's not just us, it's possible if you want to prioritize your children's mental health.

Your last line is true, and you should internalize it. You don't own the truth. In my first post in this thread I said that there are no easy answers in this pandemic, and I stand by it. I also said we all need to work together, and I stand by that too. It's not each man for himself because that can't work right now (never did anyways). Instead of sowing disunity how about working on finding ways to help kids while stopping the spread?
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amother
cornflower


 

Post Thu, Dec 03 2020, 11:36 am
Didn't read all the responses. This is very sad. Kids need to be normal teenagers and kids in schools ol. We are blowing this disease up like crazy. If you feel it's to dangerous then stay home. One of my sons are 9 and I saw a MAJOR change in him when school was closed for the worst. He was impossible. He needs structure and normalcy for a kid that age. He is a trillion times better behaved and emotionally when back in school.
We also can't go around blaming others for ppl getting sick. If you are out and a out then you have the risk of catching it. And believe it or not- HASHEM is in charge. When someone is supposed to die they will... Whether from Corona, a car accident or something else. We can't keep trying to play God. As we can see it ain't working.
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amother
Purple


 

Post Thu, Dec 03 2020, 11:36 am
amother [ Cyan ] wrote:
Because it’s so obvious from what you were saying that you don’t work in healthcare. I asked knowing what your answer would be. That wasn’t apparent?

It was.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 03 2020, 11:36 am
amother [ Ecru ] wrote:
Can we bring this back? For those who think the current approach of keeping the schools closed is correct, what are your suggestions for dealing with this problem? Do you believe that due to the risks, all other outcomes are acceptable if they can't be prevented under these measures?

On a specific note: what do you propose for special needs children or young adults whose programs do not translate to virtual and who are not only rapidly losing skills but in a decent number of cases actually resulting in dangerous situations for themselves and those around them? A remarkable amount of care takes place in schools and is not happening at all now.


Sure.

(1) Special needs programs should not have been closed except as a measure of last resort. Maybe we were there in the past. Maybe we will be there in the future. But not right now, at least not where I live. These programs and schools need to be considered separately from other schools.

(2) I don't know anything about the tragedy of this boy except what his parents say. No matter what, its a tragedy. But its usually a lot more complicated than presented here, that zoom school inevitably led to suicide. Kids are homeschooled all the time without tragedy. Kids who go to school commit suicide. So perhaps we need to dig down and address all of the issues affecting kids, including not only isolation by zoom but also as a result of the electronic age. And deal with all of it.

(3) We also need to include social media style interaction in classes, as well as ensuring our kids get outside.

(4) A risk benefit analysis needs to be done. No one likes school closures. I certainly don't.
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 03 2020, 11:37 am
amother [ Cyan ] wrote:
Because it’s so obvious from what you were saying that you don’t work in healthcare. I asked knowing what your answer would be. That wasn’t apparent?


OK, so let's break this down for a second.

Since you "knew" what my answer would be, it was okay to ask and "make it personal".

Gotcha.
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 03 2020, 11:38 am
amother [ Purple ] wrote:
It was.


No, not really. Lol. Plenty of women in healthcare agree with me. Wink

But you didn't want to engage with me anymore. Commenting on something about me is asking for a response.

Please, reserve your mental energy.
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number




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 03 2020, 11:45 am
amother [ Cyan ] wrote:
Because it’s so obvious from what you were saying that you don’t work in healthcare. I asked knowing what your answer would be. That wasn’t apparent?
How closely do you work with the infectious disease specialists? I mean, COVID was obviously not discussed in nursing school.
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amother
Cyan


 

Post Thu, Dec 03 2020, 11:48 am
number wrote:
How closely do you work with the infectious disease specialists? I mean, COVID was obviously not discussed in nursing school.

A lot. Not going to out myself, but maybe you missed the “public health” part.
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the world's best mom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 03 2020, 11:51 am
I will begin by stating my credentials. I do not work in healthcare. I am not a nurse. I am a stay at home mom whose children have just had to quarantine for 52 days and finally went back to school today. And we wear masks every time we go outside.

The article quoted here is upsetting me. Our 52 day quarantine is upsetting me.

I watched my children suffer, being unable to leave the house in the first 2 weeks after each family member tested positive, and not being allowed back in school for 24 days following the last positive test. We had 3 people here who tested positive, each one as we were coming out of quarantine for the previous positive test.

I can see how school lockdown could bring a child to commit suicide. In my house, it didn't do that B"H, but it certainly brought a lot of negative things to our house. Depression, anxiety, frustration, the feeling of being locked in a 2 bedroom jail with 6 active children who NEED to run around and let out energy. They NEED to go to the park or school, to climb trees and jungle gyms, to play ball and tag with friends. They cannot spend 52 days at home climbing the walls and beating each other up.

Besides, there comes a time when a person needs some quiet time. Sometimes, your family member is annoying you and you need to go out for a walk. Sometimes you need to escape for a few hours so you can come back refreshed. People need a break during 52 days of quarantining with 6 little kids in a 2 bedroom apartment.

Now I don't know what kind of life the boy in the article had, but he couldn't just go out as he pleased because he had remote school during the day. He couldn't meet with friends because they were still doing their remote learning, even though he dropped out. And where could they go? Everything is closed. This life is not a life. It's trying to find a way to survive when just going outside and relaxing can seem like a crime to some people.

There's gotta be a middle ground somewhere. schools have to stay open, because the average child is disserviced by having to stay home all day and look at a screen or listen to a phone. Masks need to be worn, but things need to be open so life can go on.
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amother
Cyan


 

Post Thu, Dec 03 2020, 11:55 am
I did not mean to imply that you can’t contribute meaningfully to conversation if you don’t work in healthcare. What I’m saying is that a lot of us who work in healthcare and who are frum are personally hurt by those in our community who continue ignore guidelines and post harmful things like “masks don’t work” and “you do what’s best for you.” That’s not how this works, and that’s now how we’ll get through this.
The story of this child is a tragedy. The whole thing is a tragedy. But BH vaccines are near and we can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 03 2020, 11:58 am
amother [ Cyan ] wrote:
I did not mean to imply that you can’t contribute meaningfully to conversation if you don’t work in healthcare. What I’m saying is that a lot of us who work in healthcare and who are frum are personally hurt by those in our community who continue ignore guidelines and post harmful things like “masks don’t work” and “you do what’s best for you.” That’s not how this works, and that’s now how we’ll get through this.
The story of this child is a tragedy. The whole thing is a tragedy. But BH vaccines are near and we can see the light at the end of the tunnel.


Interesting. I do think masks work and I do take covid seriously, yet you did insinuate that my contribution to this conversation is less valuable than your own.

With that said, please read below:

Parents and teachers are reacting to comments the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recently made in regard to school closures. CDC Director Dr. Robert Redfield told reporters Thursday his agency never recommended schools close in the spring nor has he recommended they do so now.

“The truth is, for kids K through 12, one of the safest places they can be from our perspective is to remain in school," he said.

Redfield said the CDC has newer data to rely on to help it make such claims.

“Today, there's extensive data that we've gathered over the last two to three months to confirm that K-12 schools can operate with face-to-face learning and they can do it safely and they can do it responsibly,” he said.

Local school systems have taken different approaches to learning in the age of COVID.

St. Mary’s County Public Schools recently paused its hybrid model due to a local covid case spike. Montgomery County Public Schools plans to remain fully virtual through January.

However, some parents say they are pleased with Redfield's comments.

Montgomery County parent Deborah Schoenfeld switched her kids to private school this year due to COVID restrictions in her community.

"Schools are so important that we really need to get these children back for in-person learning," she said. "I think it takes a lot of bravery for someone like Dr. Redfield to be making these statements."

Mike Pereira, another MCPS parent, said his family decided to homeschool their children over the summer because it looked like everything would be limited to virtual learning.

"We didn't want to take a chance on taking our kids to even a private school that could be virtually doing classes," he said.

Pereira said he was also happy to hear what Redfield said Thursday. However, he said it found it heartbreaking because many families are still in a position where their children must learn virtually.

"It's really challenging for a lot of families," he said. "For us, we're sort of in a good spot because my wife is a speech therapist and is involved in our kids' education, as am I, during the course of a normal year. But, I'm not so sure other families around Montgomery County and elsewhere can do the same thing. It's very difficult."

Montgomery County Health Officer Dr. Travis Gayles sent a letter to all private schools in his county Thursday.

It stated current data shows coronavirus cases attributed to exposure in Montgomery schools have been low. However, it also said that per guidance from the Maryland departments of education and health, all schools should strongly consider a return to full virtual learning due to the current COVID case surge.

"The messaging was that we should follow the science, nothing else, the science of what's happening," she said. "And, [the CDC's stance] clearly is suggesting that we should not."

Davis added that not all schools are well-off and have the resources needed to reopen safely. She said the White House still needs to provide funding to help all schools.

"They've basically starved jurisdictions and school districts of the funding they need in order to open schools safely," she said.

Redfield's comments also created some confusion Thursday. On the CDC's website, an old page shows the agency once shared guidelines with the country's schools as to what they should do if they decided to close due to the coronavirus.

WUSA9 reached out to DC Public Schools, Fairfax County Public Schools, and Prince George's County Schools for comment regarding the CDC's stance. Those are some of the largest schools in the area that are predominantly virtual during the fall semester. None of them replied as of the publishing of this article.


Last edited by gold21 on Thu, Dec 03 2020, 12:00 pm; edited 2 times in total
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amother
Turquoise


 

Post Thu, Dec 03 2020, 11:59 am
amother [ Purple ] wrote:
I was a very suicidal teenager and no one cared except to gossip. I was suicidal pp and no one cared either. Don't give me cr*p. When the pandemic is over we will go back to being swept under the rug and if I committed suicide now no one would care except to use my death to prove that lockdowns and SD are evil. If I committed suicide before or after covid people would say "ohh so sad tsk tsk tsk too bad they must be so broken she must have had issues for a while now" and then completely forget about it. And we both know it.

Prepandemic we were obviously mental health cases and rachmanus cases, like you see the covid deaths as being, not normal people. Now with covid we are proof that lockdown and SD are bad, when this is over we'll go back to being not normal and rachmanus cases.

I'm sooo glad you cared about us. Other than "always speaking about it" what did you do to help?


That's sad that no one cared about YOU, but that doesn't mean that people aren't busy with it all the time. I see you are very bitter about your experience so I'm not going to keep discussing this triggering topic with you. But your assumptions and accusations are wrong.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 03 2020, 12:59 pm
I don't know. Most European countries have opened schools without too many issues. Schools are open where I live. Each class is bubbled. Everything else (most shops, restuarants, cinemas, libraries etc) has been shut for the last few weeks but schools stay open. Its a huge priority.

I am not a medical expert but I do trust the medical experts of my country and of most other European countries that opening schools is very important.

I don't know if schools being closed is causing an increase in suicide among teenagers - I imagine its swings and roundabouts - but it can have other very many detrimental effects. Poor kids from deprived backgrounds will fall even more behind, children in abusive homes have no escape, etc.
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amother
Orange


 

Post Thu, Dec 03 2020, 2:27 pm
amother [ Purple ] wrote:
Special needs should remain open. All of it. The risks are too high for them to stay closed, they are not the ones out partying, their classes/ groups are small.

Everything else can find a capsule solution, do part-time in school and part-time virtual, cancel school and create pods of 2-3 families each who meet only each other, etc. Virtual school but allowing kids to meet at the park, in set groups of 10 kids at a set time, etc. Lots of creative solutions if we're willing to look for them. If virtual school isn't working then homeschool or create a pod.


What about families where both parents need to be working to make ends meet? Should one of them just quit his/her job to be home with the kids?
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amother
Apricot


 

Post Thu, Dec 03 2020, 2:38 pm
amother [ Purple ] wrote:
I was a very suicidal teenager and no one cared except to gossip. I was suicidal pp and no one cared either. Don't give me cr*p. When the pandemic is over we will go back to being swept under the rug and if I committed suicide now no one would care except to use my death to prove that lockdowns and SD are evil. If I committed suicide before or after covid people would say "ohh so sad tsk tsk tsk too bad they must be so broken she must have had issues for a while now" and then completely forget about it. And we both know it.

Prepandemic we were obviously mental health cases and rachmanus cases, like you see the covid deaths as being, not normal people. Now with covid we are proof that lockdown and SD are bad, when this is over we'll go back to being not normal and rachmanus cases.

I'm sooo glad you cared about us. Other than "always speaking about it" what did you do to help?

This is the second thread (at least) where you tried to speak for all those suicidal. The fact is that many of us really struggle when we lose our usual routines and resources. And people who normally wouldn’t be suicidal get triggered by the isolation and lack of routine.

If you find your life to be better during lockdown, figure out why and make the changes you need. Don’t advocate for the rest of us to have our needs ignored.

And no, I’m not a mental health case or rachmanus case. I do feel that way sometimes but mostly I’m a human being who struggles with things most others don’t.

Please get the help you need and stop trying to speak for a population you really don’t represent.
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amother
Apricot


 

Post Thu, Dec 03 2020, 2:49 pm
From another thread
amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:
I don't know if you're referring to yourself or in general, but in general this pisses me off because generally speaking, no one would care if I committed suicide at all, ever, other than my family (husband and children).

Everyone else would cry crocodile tears and say "oh so sad" and maybe help out for maximum a month or two (and that's generous), while claiming to care. (Okay, there is one exception, I think the rebbetzin here would care and really would help if I asked her for help. But no one else.)

But nowadays let's say I committed suicide (I'm not there now but I was about a year ago), everyone would be sharing links to the news and saying "this is not a joke" and using (abusing) my death and suffering to prove how lockdown is so horrible and lockdown kills and it's worse than masses dying of covid, and more people die of suicide than of covid, and blah blah blah.

Basically these kinds of threads - and sorry OP if you were referring to yourself - majorly piss me off and trigger me because you know, they never came up before covid and the people touting mental health and suicide prevention don't care squat about anyone's suffering or difficulties other than their own. They abuse other people's stories and suffering to "prove" their own point and to excuse their ego and selfishness in wanting everything to remain open. They ignore that people with mental health struggles are a spectrum, some of us are doing better with lockdown and worse with the irresponsible reopenings and some of us are doing worse, some of us are less suicidal with the lockdown and some of us are more.

But most of all we are not tools or toys for people to flaunt whenever they want to justify their own desires and how it's okay to step on people's toes and talk about how what you don't like is at the expense of the most vulnerable, when you don't even care about the vulnerable in the first place, never have, and never will.

Rant over.
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amother
Cyan


 

Post Thu, Dec 03 2020, 2:56 pm
amother [ Apricot ] wrote:
From another thread


I think people who struggle with suicidal thoughts come from all walks of life and all types of experiences. Imamother purple is sharing her experience, which may be different from yours or someone else with this mental health concern. That doesn’t mean that only hers or only yours is valid.
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 03 2020, 3:04 pm
amother [ Cyan ] wrote:
I think people who struggle with suicidal thoughts come from all walks of life and all types of experiences. Imamother purple is sharing her experience, which may be different from yours or someone else with this mental health concern. That doesn’t mean that only hers or only yours is valid.


In that case, why not demonstrate a little sensitivity towards those who believe that school lockdown is psychologically debilitating for children & teens?

I mentioned that there is little to no relationship between overwhelmed hospitals and school closures, you refuted that claim due to your work in healthcare. Why not take the time to do a bit of research into my claim before writing it off?


Last edited by gold21 on Thu, Dec 03 2020, 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Cyan


 

Post Thu, Dec 03 2020, 3:07 pm
gold21 wrote:
In that case, why not demonstrate a little sensitivity towards those who believe that school lockdown is psychologically debilitating for children & teens?

It is definitely psychologically debilitating for many people. Never said it wasn’t.
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