Would you tell your kids...

amother

Thu, Dec 10 2020, 8:32 pm

The actual story of Yehudis?
Dh just asked me if we would tell our kids. I don’t think we would cover it up but not sure I would sit them down davka to tell them. How bout you?

amother

Teal

Thu, Dec 10 2020, 8:47 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

That’s the story I’m talking about. I’ve never learnt it as she seduced him or anything along those lines...

Ok then
What DID you learn then?
Popcorn

amother

Saddlebrown

Thu, Dec 10 2020, 8:52 pm

I just told it to my 5th grade students as "he wanted to marry her, and she said she would marry him..."

And yes, we do talk about the beheading. We also do Sisra in Navi which is even more graphic.

thunderstorm

Thu, Dec 10 2020, 9:09 pm

amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:

I just told it to my 5th grade students as "he wanted to marry her, and she said she would marry him..."

And yes, we do talk about the beheading. We also do Sisra in Navi which is even more graphic.

Yes. And I had no issue learning any of this.

amother

Magenta

Thu, Dec 10 2020, 9:09 pm

The kids learn in nursery that she wanted to become his friend and she wanted him to like her so she got him wine and cheese. They also learn that she beheaded him and put his head at the gate of yerushalayim. It's the most exciting part of the story.

little neshamala

Thu, Dec 10 2020, 9:15 pm

Oh my gosh.
She seduced him? I never knew that! I was taught that she got him to trust her by saying she could give him secrets how to win over the Jews, bu sharing their weak spots etc. She was charismatic and believable, he liked her, she gave him lots of cheese and wine, and chopped off his head.

Im feeling quite annoyed right now. What, at least 13 years of solid Bais Yaakov education and I never knew the real story?

Can someone please educate me...

(And OP, I say yes teach your kids the real story so they dont learn it when theyre in their 30s and come out feeling as incredibly annoyed as I do now)

amother

Tangerine

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 12:09 am

little neshamala wrote:

sorry for your experience, but OP, I strongly disagree.
there is something called age appropriateness.
it is NOT age appropriate for an 8 year old to learn about seduction, so sorry!!!
they can learn the story about Yehudis and her bravery in an AGE APPROPRIATE way!!
that is completely inappropriate in my opinion.
I also learned this story as a child in an age appropriate way and yes, now I am an adult, and yes, I now know she seduced him, and no, I don't feel annoyed.

amother

Lawngreen

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 12:23 am

Wow, I’m still the only person who voted No? It must be because my kids are young. I cannot think of any reason it’s necessary to tell a five year old about seduction. I also remember learning about the beheading but not about the seduction and I think that’s well appropriate for a child.

yidisheh mama

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 12:27 am

little neshamala wrote:

I also learned this "version"! 🤨

Redbird

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 1:12 am

I don't even remember if I learned the actual story in school or later.

But what I learned when I was little is she brought him wine and cheese to make him sleepy, and when he fell asleep she chopped off his head.

amother

Scarlet

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 1:16 am

It’s funny, DH was just telling me that he told the story (in a hopefully age appropriate way) to my wide eyed 1st grade daughter. He was actually quite surprised she didn’t already know it from her Morah.

amother

Yellow

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 1:31 am

#BestBubby wrote:

I think a better question is would you tell your kids the story of Chana and her seven sons?

So scary!

I always heard that story in school. But never heard the story about Yehudis in school at all. Though I knew about from reading stuff outside of school. So, I knew the complete version, anyway.

amother

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 1:47 am

Expecting our first so this isn’t actually applicable yet.
I learnt the version of her telling him she’d give him secrets and then served wine and cheese etc. with the beheading obv.
I never learnt about the seduction and that they had relations.

zohar

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 2:32 am

Yehudis did initially gain helifornus's trust by offering to spy and give advice to him. This is according to text. (I just looked it up and read it.) it is only insinuated that she seduced him, and by the text, it's reasonable to assume that he got drunk and passed out before committing the deed. It's only on the fourth day that he asked her to join him in his tent. The rest of the time she was giving him what he thought was inside information.

I also just checked secular and Christian sources and they tell the story just like we all learned it in Bais Yaakov. It is interesting though, that there is question on when this actually took place. The text, which comes to us through the Christians' preservation, says it's during the time of nebuchadnezzar. (Which is interesting to me, because the general's name in that version is still helifornus, which sounds Greek to me). Also, they say that he was the Asyrian king. And nebuchadnezzar was a babylonian king. (Asyria would aline better with the Jewish version.) The medrashim say she was the daughter of yochanan kohen gadol and took place during the Greek period.

clowny

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 9:49 am

Redbird wrote:

This the version I learnt and is also the version my kids are learning now.
I totally agree with amother tangerine.
I was laughing to myself when I read this thread because I’m just learning the full story now. While I was reading this dh walked in and I repeated it to him. We laughed together and he filled me in on the story. In no way do I feel annoyed. This is not the only story of Jewish history that is kept from young children because of some inappropriate details.