Would you tell your kids...

lamplighter

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 10:10 am

We learned the story in a very basic way, she asked to meet him, she served him food, gained his trust and beheaded him.
Even the original text does not explicitly say anything about seduction. As I got older I assumed there was some of that going on but I never felt the story was misrepresented or inappropriate or confusing.
It just was

amother

Slateblue

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 10:18 am

I am piecing together the story as I am reading this thread. I only learned about the cheese and wine part.
I am annoyed. Sx is such an open topic in the Torah, it is annoying when it is decided that it isn’t a tznius topic to teach. It makes it seem like a bigger mountain than it is.

amother

Slategray

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 10:24 am

I'm confused now. Am I mixing up the story? I thought that Helifornes used to r@pe all brides before their weddings, and Yehudis plied him with wine and cheese and then killed him before he could r@pe her. Was that someone else?

Last edited by amother on Thu, May 06 2021, 8:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

little neshamala

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 10:35 am

amother [ Tangerine ] wrote:

sorry for your experience, but OP, I strongly disagree.
there is something called age appropriateness.
it is NOT age appropriate for an 8 year old to learn about seduction, so sorry!!!
they can learn the story about Yehudis and her bravery in an AGE APPROPRIATE way!!
that is completely inappropriate in my opinion.
I also learned this story as a child in an age appropriate way and yes, now I am an adult, and yes, I now know she seduced him, and no, I don't feel annoyed.

Who's talking about an 8 year old? OP just said "kids" Obviously the tender age of 8 is quite young to be told that but im totally fine with telling kids when theyre a bit older.

little neshamala

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 10:49 am

little neshamala wrote:

Oh my gosh.
She seduced him? I never knew that! I was taught that she got him to trust her by saying she could give him secrets how to win over the Jews, bu sharing their weak spots etc. She was charismatic and believable, he liked her, she gave him lots of cheese and wine, and chopped off his head.

Im feeling quite annoyed right now. What, at least 13 years of solid Bais Yaakov education and I never knew the real story?

Can someone please educate me...

(And OP, I say yes teach your kids the real story so they dont learn it when theyre in their 30s and come out feeling as incredibly annoyed as I do now)

To clarify...im not suggesting we tell our kindergarteners the whole story. Duh.
But I am annoyed that in all my years of schooling, I was never taught the real version. Not when I was 12, not when I was 15, not when I was 18...
That bothers me. Like someone mentioned a few posts up, it makes it into way bigger of a mountain than it really is

amother

White

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 11:02 am

imanonymous wrote:

Just heard this in a shiur. I think it's a different story but the same person. Basically, Yehudis was at her wedding and everyone sort of knew that was going to happen later (bride had to go to the local hegmon on her wedding night), but no one was saying anything. She str*pped in front of everyone, and her brothers (the kohanim/maccabim) wanted to kill her for bringing shame to their family in front of everyone. She asked how that's any different from what klal Yisroel were willing to let happen to their daughters, and what her brothers were willing to let happen to their sisters. Her brothers killed the hegmon that night, and that sparked conflict with the Greeks.

A bit fuzzy on some of the details but that's the gist I understood.

amother

Mistyrose

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 11:04 am

I am 99% sure no relations actually happened. He got drunk and fell asleep before that happened. But she definitely seduced him in the sense that he thought they would have relations, but she also was offering him information which is how she gained his trust initially.
If anyone has a source otherwise, please post.

amother

Slategray

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 11:05 am

little neshamala wrote:

I was never outright taught the story of Dovid and Batsheva, or Amnon and Tamar, or any of the other ones. I had to "read between the lines." Basically, I had to go back in my mind and think about everything that was glossed over or taught as "marriage," and then think about what must have happened.

The only story we did learn was Yehuda and Tamar, in 9th grade. I was grateful.

Last edited by amother on Thu, May 06 2021, 8:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Maroon

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 11:22 am

little neshamala wrote:

(And OP, I say yes teach your kids the real story so they dont learn it when theyre in their 30s and come out feeling as incredibly annoyed as I do now)

Sensitive, are we? This is the first I'm hearing about an actual seduction though just yesterday I read some magazine article drawing parallels between Judith and Esther. I always thought that Judith implied that she'd dtd but managed to put Hollow Furnace to sleep before it got to that point, so I wondered why the parallel between Judith and Esther and not between Judith and Yael. Now I know.

My point is, why the annoyance? I don't feel cheated that I never knew the 'real' story and I'm twice your age. There's NO reason for a young child or even a teenager to know the whole truth here. I could have lived my entire life not knowing the truth and it would have made no difference. Knowing has not made me any happier or smarter. Either way, Judith was a woman of valor who risked her life for her people. Knowing she sacrificed her virtue makes me sad for her--what an awful sacrifice to have to make--but in no way dims her luster as a heroine.

zohar

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 11:39 am

Why are people here feeling lied to our at least that they were taught a very sanitized version. Like I wrote up post, I just reread the original. There is no explicit seduction. They do talk how everyone is smitten by her beauty, which is talked about in Bais Yaakov. But the main way she infiltrates the camp, is by offering information and strategies to beat the Jews.

The story taught in Bais Yaakov mirrors the original very very closely. Emphasizing the s*xual elements of the story actually is moving away from canon.

It's like being upset that you weren't taught that achashverosh asked vashti to come to the party naked in elementary school. That's not in the original. It's a medrash.

little neshamala

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 11:47 am

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

Youre right.
The annoyance thats coming out is a build up..I'll explain.
Ive always been annoyed that things are glossed over. Im talking age 12 and up. The girls schools gloss over every single thing, when the boys are learning concepts of nidah, besulah, mikvah, understanding halacha with regard to girls' periods, s-x etc, and thats fine because its within a Torah context.
But for some reason girls, even in high school, generally never come across any of these terms at all. We dont hear a thing.
That was my experience.
Yes, it annoys me.
Its Torah. Just teach it. Or if not, then dont teach the boys either.

amother

Royalblue

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 11:59 am

little neshamala wrote:

That is true and kind of ironic too. In some ways the boys learn about girl's bodies and the rules before the girls themselves!
Dh says he always assumed that most of the stuff he learned (periods etc...) were things that aren't applicable today's days. He was in for a surprise when his chosson teacher clued him in otherwise.
This is a guy that comes from a house of girls. Never knew a period was something girls get today, that's how taboo these subjects are.

imanonymous

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 12:46 pm

amother [ White ] wrote:

Got it, thanks.

amother

Slategray

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 12:50 pm

amother [ Royalblue ] wrote:

LOL when my pure, innocent cousin was 12 years old, he was sitting in the back of the car with his mother driving and suddenly started saying, "Oh. Oh." My aunt asked him what happened. He said, "You mean—you mean that girls go through that every month?" He had just put together that what he learned about abstractly in Gemara was something that actually happens nowadays.

DH told me that until chosson classes, he didn't realize that the period wasn't just one big gush of blood, even though he knew about periods from conversations among his sisters.

soap suds

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 1:27 pm

little neshamala wrote:

This is how I learnt it in school, too. I learnt about the seduction part on a Torah Anytime shiur.

OP, do you talk your kids about s*x in general? If you do, then why not tell them the truth. But if you generally avoid the topic then you likely skip over the story of Yosef Hatzadik an Potiphar’s wife and all other references to it in the Torah - then why should this be different?

amother

Tangerine

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 1:47 pm

Personally I wouldn't talk to my children about intimacy until they are way older.....I would push it off as long as possible, what's the rush?
but my kids aren't in co-ed schools, so if it's not applicable to them, why do they have to know the details now?
how will it help their life?
main thing is I can model for my kids what a loving marriage- the more family oriented parts- looks like! smiling, laughing, conversing with my husband. buying gifts for spouse, showing respect etc. etc.
they don't need to know about bedroom life now.

amother

Maroon

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 2:23 pm

little neshamala wrote:

Classic example of a post in which only after getting answers she doesn't like does an OP come out with the real story. Now you're saying that you resent being kept in the dark when boys get the truth at a very early age. So this has nothing to do with telling "children" or not telling "children" it has to do with having a double standard based on gender and in being kept in the dark because you're female. In this I agree with you 100%. As an International Women's Day poster I once saw said "If it isn't appropriate for women, it isn't appropriate."

I'm horrified at the sort of things that are considered fine to teach 13-year-old boys but are hidden from single women regardless of age.

amother

Mint

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 2:43 pm

little neshamala wrote:

It was both. The version you learned in correct, she offered to help keep him updated on how things were inside the besieged city. At the same time, he went for it because she was beautiful and she flaunted it for him. That's the reason Uziah, the leader of the city, didn't like the idea as it would tarnish the honor of her deceased husband Menashe, she convinced him to let her go anyway