Would you tell your kids...

little neshamala

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 3:57 pm

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

Classic example of a post in which only after getting answers she doesn't like does an OP come out with the real story. Now you're saying that you resent being kept in the dark when boys get the truth at a very early age. So this has nothing to do with telling "children" or not telling "children" it has to do with having a double standard based on gender and in being kept in the dark because you're female. In this I agree with you 100%. As an International Women's Day poster I once saw said "If it isn't appropriate for women, it isn't appropriate."

I'm horrified at the sort of things that are considered fine to teach 13-year-old boys but are hidden from single women regardless of age.

Excuse me? Why so argumentative?
1) post under your screen name
2) I am not the OP
3) there is no double standard or hidden agenda on this thread.

little neshamala

Fri, Dec 11 2020, 3:59 pm

amother [ Mint ] wrote:

It was both. The version you learned in correct, she offered to help keep him updated on how things were inside the besieged city. At the same time, he went for it because she was beautiful and she flaunted it for him. That's the reason Uziah, the leader of the city, didn't like the idea as it would tarnish the honor of her deceased husband Menashe, she convinced him to let her go anyway

Interesting. Thank you

FranticFrummie

Sat, Dec 12 2020, 11:33 am

Quote:

The kids learn in nursery that she wanted to become his friend and she wanted him to like her

So, pretend you like someone, then sneak up on them and kill them, right? How is that not confusing for a kindergartner?

My situation was a bit different. DD would come home from cheder, having learned something that had been simplified, and it wouldn't make sense to her. She's a very logical, very very black and white thinker. DD is also a deep thinker, and she has an extremely strong sense of justice.

If something doesn't add up, she will not leave it alone until she can get the whole story. I told her the whole Yehudis story, in all it's gory details. She loved it! She said "He was mean and not nice to her, and he deserved it."

Girl power! Lady

chanchy123

Sat, Dec 12 2020, 1:59 pm

It not something you “tell your kids” it’s common knowledge, I assume my kids learned about Yehudit in school, obviously at an age appropriate level. Like they learn about Yael and Sisra.

LovesHashem

Sat, Dec 12 2020, 2:03 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

Quote:

The kids learn in nursery that she wanted to become his friend and she wanted him to like her

Well I don’t think young children can or should understand sxually seduction. An age appropriate way to explain it is that she pretended to be his friend. He really liked her, and she pretended to like him.

amother

Mint

Sat, Dec 12 2020, 6:23 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

Quote:

The kids learn in nursery that she wanted to become his friend and she wanted him to like her

Ok so what would you prefer her kindergarten teacher said? "She made herself look beautiful so Helifornes would rape her"?
I would be very very upset if my kindergarten child came home with anything more detailed than "She made him want to be friends with her and then killed her"

salt

Sun, Dec 13 2020, 3:21 am

#BestBubby wrote:

I think a better question is would you tell your kids the story of Chana and her seven sons?

So scary!

Yes terrible story. My DD (4th grade) acted it out with some friends in front of their class in the school chanuka party (they chose to!). Just matter of factly.

I think these kinds of stories don't really seem real in some way. They are stories. Like a lot of stories in tanach. The people it happened to are kind of not 'real people' - they are characters.

I mean what about the story of Rachel Imenu dying in childbirth. My DD has a friend who from a very young age was traumatized by that incident. Yosef and Binyamin grew up without a mother. But I don't think most kids take it badly. As Rachel Imeinu is a biblical character, not a 'real' person who they know personally.

FranticFrummie

Sun, Dec 13 2020, 5:34 am

amother [ Mint ] wrote:

DD understood the concept of shomer negiah, and I told her that he wanted to hug and kiss her before he wanted to marry her. She knew that was wrong.

Being the very literal thinker she is, she struggled a lot with many difficult midrashim, that even I had a hard time justifying.

I still have a hard time with a lot of midrashim. It's hard to tell what is pshat, and what is a cautionary tale with a moral to it. Did something actually happen, or was it a parable? I know it's usually both, but what if it's one and not the other?

L'havdil, look up the original stories of The Little Mermaid and Sleeping Beauty. They are horrifying and really dark! Those "fairy tales" were not meant for toddlers, that's for sure.

amother

Cerise

Sun, Dec 13 2020, 6:15 am

amother [ Royalblue ] wrote:

That is true and kind of ironic too. In some ways the boys learn about girl's bodies and the rules before the girls themselves!
Dh says he always assumed that most of the stuff he learned (periods etc...) were things that aren't applicable today's days. He was in for a surprise when his chosson teacher clued him in otherwise.
This is a guy that comes from a house of girls. Never knew a period was something girls get today, that's how taboo these subjects are.

Lol!
I was standing by the sink washing dishes, and my dh and son were by the table "talking in learning". Then I hear them talking about girls seeing blood... I was like what?!? Are they seriously sitting right near talking about my periods?? I was cringing!

My dh told me afterwards that they really dont take it literal, dont think its applicable nowadays.

amother

Blonde

Sun, Dec 13 2020, 7:22 am

amother [ White ] wrote:

Just heard this in a shiur. I think it's a different story but the same person. Basically, Yehudis was at her wedding and everyone sort of knew that was going to happen later (bride had to go to the local hegmon on her wedding night), but no one was saying anything. She str*pped in front of everyone, and her brothers (the kohanim/maccabim) wanted to kill her for bringing shame to their family in front of everyone. She asked how that's any different from what klal Yisroel were willing to let happen to their daughters, and what her brothers were willing to let happen to their sisters. Her brothers killed the hegmon that night, and that sparked conflict with the Greeks.

A bit fuzzy on some of the details but that's the gist I understood.

Heard from DH that this woman was not Yehudis. This woman was indeed the sister of the Maccabees (some say of Matisyahu, so their aunt). Yehudis was someone else entirely, and so these stories happened to two different women.

SuperWify

Sun, Dec 13 2020, 10:51 am

amother [ Blonde ] wrote:

Yes this. This was Chana the sister of the maccabim. When she protested this decree by stripping in front of the elders her brothers took action and killed the general.

amother

Maroon

Sun, Dec 13 2020, 3:12 pm

little neshamala wrote:

Excuse me? Why so argumentative?
1) post under your screen name
2) I am not the OP
3) there is no double standard or hidden agenda on this thread.

I know you're not the OP. I'm just pointing out that in your first post you expressed your resentment that your educators had left out certain salacious details of the story. In your next post you changed you tune and what really irked you wasn't so much that your education was incomplete but that it was incomplete because you're female. It's not the same thing at all. No school can possibly teach every nuance of every story with every midrash from every source, and if your schools happen to have glossed over certain details because they didn't want to deal with students posting awkward questions, so be it. But when you're being kept in ignorance not because of your age but because of your gender, that's a whole nother ballgame.