Baltimore vs. Passaic vs. Toms River

amother

Thu, Dec 24 2020, 7:40 pm

We live in Brooklyn and are looking to relocate to one of these three places (most likely).

Here is the pros/cons list we came up with so far.

Baltimore
Pros: OOT community, RW working men who are koveia itim, community and Rav for us, schools with good hashkafos and emphasis on students' emotional as well as academic and spiritual growth, decent to good secular education for boys as well as kodesh, relatively cheap housing (we'd be looking for a starter home, most likely)
Cons: Far away from family, expensive food and tuition, no bussing, fewer job opportunities (but there is potential for both DH and me to work remotely, so that may not be such an issue)

Passaic
Pros: commutable to Manhattan so more job opportunities for DH and me, closer to family, more OOT flavor than Brooklyn, yeshivish working men so hopefully community for us- but less of a fit than Baltimore
Cons: expensive food and tuition, no school choice, no bussing, old and sparse housing market, not sure about a Rav, not sure about secular education (but still better than Toms River)

Toms River
Pros: available housing- though I know prices have risen, cheaper food and tuition, bussing, great limudei kodesh, reasonably close to family compared to Baltimore
Cons: in-town community that might not be a fit for us at all- seems like Brooklyn Southwest to me, poor secular education and nonexistent for boys, high level of materialism, hard to get into schools and they're too yeshivish for us, not sure about a Rav.

Anything to add to this list about any of the places? I can put it in as a pro or a con based on the needs of our family.

For a while, both of us were set on Passaic as a reasonable compromise. Now, we see it as a compromise in virtually every area. I'm leaning more towards Baltimore, and DH is leaning more towards Toms River. Even so, DH knows that we need to research more about the community there. Can anyone shed light on Toms River and what it's like? Is there a place for someone who has been dying to escape the "in-town" mentality, and a family that is RW but DH works and we want our kids to get a decent secular education?

amother

Sienna

Thu, Dec 24 2020, 8:24 pm

People don't really do starter homes in Baltimore. They either buy what they can afford which is either a semi D or a large Beazer style house or they buy a smaller house that has potential for an extension.

Also, pricing has gone up a lot. Just be aware of that.

It's a great community but NYers can run into trouble with the mentality that exists here. It's hard to explain but it's very different. Covid really brought it to the forefront. I wish I knew how to explain it better. Just be prepared for culture shock.

amother

Mint

Thu, Dec 24 2020, 8:26 pm

amother [ Sienna ] wrote:

Even if you buy a 600,000 home in Baltimore you still aren’t paying 20,000 in taxes. It makes a big difference in monthly expenses.

amother

Ivory

Fri, Dec 25 2020, 12:30 am

Honestly, seems like all your most important pros are in Baltimore. The community, Rav, fit, schooling etc
To me, the cons you mentioned are not really such cons. I live here and moved from NY many years ago. I used to feel the food prices were more but really don't feel that way anymore, it's really comparable to NY groceries, plus you have so many other conveniences that add up like easy drive /parking to Walmart /trader Joe's /target etc for all things you can get there.
The drive to NY is very doable. We've done it more times that we can easily count. Especially if your kids are young, they'll just get used to it from the start. I like to think of it as a little longer than going to the country (3.5 hours vs 2.5, depends where going of course).
Home prices are going up, probably due to the increase in families moving here and it being such a viable frum community but it is what it is, still cheaper than NY by far with much more bang for your buck.
So long as you can find jobs whether local or remote, I would definitely encourage you to move here.

amother

Fri, Dec 25 2020, 10:30 am

amother [ Sienna ] wrote:

I'm probably looking at a semi D. How much would that cost now? By "starter" I mean that we'll eventually move. BE'H we'll be able to afford bigger in the future. Also, pricing has gone up everywhere.

Can you explain what you mean by the last paragraph? My mentality is pretty OOT and not NY to begin with. Do you mean that people actually followed the covid rules? (Gasp!) That would make my year!

amother

Fri, Dec 25 2020, 10:31 am

amother [ Ivory ] wrote:

You're right that Baltimore is probably the best fit. The thing is that I am not the world's best traveler. I have family upstate but rarely visit because of the drive. I have relatives in Baltimore and we do the drive maybe once a year. My husband is also a bad traveler. We both get carsick, and the one who's driving (me) can't take Dramamine...

amother

Fri, Dec 25 2020, 10:36 am

amother [ Crimson ] wrote:

I live in Passaic some houses are older then outhers but well built clifton has some newer houses. Schools do work with you. Bussing I am used to it we carpool it works traffic is not super crazy. I really love it here there are all types and it's really a community. Any questions ask away .

I'm not interested in Clifton because I hear it's less frum and more ritzy.

What are the housing prices like in Passaic? I hear that most of the houses are old, there is a very small market, and that prices are not cheap at all.

What do you mean by "work with you" as far as the schools? I've heard many people complain about the lack of choices and the fact that you have to go along with all of the school's rules. I'm not too keen on letting the school control my filtering. We have filters on all of our devices, thankyouverymuch. The chesed dollar thing sounds annoying.

Additionally, carpool has been a disaster for me in Brooklyn with my little kids who don't have bussing. That worries me about both Baltimore and Passaic. I know that there's a much better system, but what if I can't do morning or afternoon?

How much does babysitting cost in Passaic and Baltimore?

amother

Fri, Dec 25 2020, 10:38 am

amother [ Lime ] wrote:

Consider Monsey and highland park / Edison. I really don’t see what Lakewood (toms River) has to offer you. Monsey is less out of towny than Passaic, but better housing and school choices. Highland park / Edison is I think more similar to Passaic.

I agree 100% about TR. My husband is very keen on it because he dreams of bigger housing. How big are the houses in TR?

Monsey is too in-town for us, I think. Also, one of the advantages of Passaic is the commutability to Manhattan. Looks like Monsey is further away.

I hear that Edison is a less frum version of Passaic, and that bears out in the people I know from both places. Do you think that's true in general?

Rubber Ducky

Fri, Dec 25 2020, 10:40 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Yes, people (for the most part) really do follow Covid rules.

In my work I do some remodel designs (basement conversions, kitchens, a few additions) for families in semi-Ds. Some families really like their block; they don't always choose to "move up."

amother

Fri, Dec 25 2020, 11:02 am

amother [ Purple ] wrote:

Toms River isn’t remotely out of town. You can likely find a neighborhood with the right crowd for you, and depending on how old your kids are there are sure to be more schools opening. But if you’re looking for the out of town flavor then run from Toms River.

Do you want to post what exactly you’re looking for? If you don’t like Passaic then maybe a nearby community would be a better fit.

1. Rav and community - we're in our mid-20s, DH wears a white shirt during the week, working and koveia itim, looking for an understanding, approachable RW Rav who will take into account our individual circumstances and needs. As an example, DH would love to have men to both learn with and play board games with (obviously mainly on Shabbos). I'm looking for a crowd that is not so materialistic. We're both professionals, so we would appreciate people of similar education and background, though that's not strictly necessary.

2. Schools - looking for schools that have strong limudei kodesh and at least decent limudei chol. We want our kids to be able to go to college if they so choose (we'd definitely want our girls to; for boy, we'd want them to have a viable plan, learning or working) without the struggle of years of missing info. Also looking for more warmth than NY, working with kids' emotional needs and focusing on the whole person. I'm putting in this category the ease under which people can or cannot get into schools, as I am aware of the Lakewood school impossibility.

3. Housing (this is probably #1 on DH's list, and may be 2 or 3 on mine) - reasonably affordable (less than $500K) for a decent-sized house. I know that "decent-sized" is relative. My friend in TR bought a 1,990-sq ft house for $380K a couple of years ago. I know prices have gone up since then in TR. How much would a 2k-sq-ft house cost in Baltimore and Passaic? What about other neighborhoods?

4. Tuition - obviously tuition is higher in Passaic and Baltimore; I've heard that Passaic is really tough about breaks, though. What about Baltimore?

5. Frum infrastructure - choices of shuls, mikvaos, kosher stores, takeout... I know that Passaic really doesn't have that, especially the takeout.

6. Food prices - I know they're much higher in Passaic and Baltimore than TR. How much higher, though?

amother

Fri, Dec 25 2020, 11:03 am

Rubber Ducky wrote:

B'H. Is that what amother Sienna meant by culture shock, though?

That adds options for us regarding semi-Ds. How much does a semi-D cost in Baltimore?

amother

Sienna

Fri, Dec 25 2020, 11:10 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Tax rate in Baltimore City is about 2.5 percent. In the county it's 1.25 percent

It's not just following covid rules. It's the cattiness and judginess of people. I can't tell you how many WhatsApp/facebook threads I have seen of people being obnoxious about others who don't do things their way. I've been here for almost 15 years and my respect for people has gone way down. Stay in your own lane Karen. I don't think NY mentality is perfect but people mind their own business for the most part. It's other things not just covid. If someone has problems with a local business or a school and mentions something people get very defensive. Or if someone complains about the food boxes people jump down their throats and say be appreciative of what you get and we owe soooooo much gratitude to the people doing the food boxes. I'm not saying they are wrong but Baltimore has a lot of holier than though weirdos who really come out on social media.

That being said, I love Baltimore, have a great group of friends who aren't like that, and it's a wonderful community. Just be prepared for some culture shock.