Jonathan Pollard made aliyah and is living in Yerushalayim

PinkFridge

Thu, Dec 31 2020, 10:21 am

bananas4bananas wrote:

BH it's so wonderful but I really wish Israel wouldn't have made such a big deal of it... Sooo bad for Israel's PR and relationship with the US

One reason why I vote no for MK, though besides that, I don't think the Pollards need that now.
Had it not been for covid it would have been much bigger.
The video clip and article I read were very appropriate. I don't know how much bigger it got than the Bibi greeting.

SixOfWands

Thu, Dec 31 2020, 10:31 am

Jewishmom8 wrote:

I am not sure about the idea I just read about of making him an MK.
What do you think about that

Pollard betrayed his own country (the US) by selling its secrets to another country (Israel). He not only turned over documents that Israel requested, he volunteered more. For example, he voluntarily delivered three daily intelligence summaries that had not been requested by his handlers, but which proved useful to them, and ultimately handed over roughly 1,500 such messages from the Middle East and North Africa Summary (MENAS), the Mediterranean Littoral Intelligence Summary (MELOS), and the Indian Ocean Littoral Intelligence. On one occasion, he delivered 5 suitcases full of documents.

Maybe you think that because he supported Israel, he had the right to do that. Let's agree to disagree.

But is this a guy that you want handling confidential Israeli information?

PinkFridge

Thu, Dec 31 2020, 10:39 am

bananas4bananas wrote:

Because he spied on the US for Israel

I think that everyone who defended Pollard over the years started with the premises that what he did was wrong. However what he did - sharing information that seemed should have been shared - cannot be compared to spying by an enemy country to bring damage to the US. As such his sentence was way too draconian.

Can we watch the video and just see another Jew being nosei ol and welcoming new citizens home? Sure, there's the optics and the political angle. But we can't discount the joy we feel at justice finally being served.

Java

Thu, Dec 31 2020, 10:44 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Of course I completely agree! She asked why it was bad for optics and I explained, didn't mean to discount the joy at all

SixOfWands

Thu, Dec 31 2020, 11:14 am

PinkFridge wrote:

As none of us know what information Pollard stole and provided to another country, none of us know if it "should have been shared."

Pollard himself admitted shopping his services—successfully, in some cases—to countries other than Israel. Before he pled guilty, the US alleged that Pollard used classified documents to unsuccessfully broker an arms deal with the governments of South Africa, Argentina, and Taiwan. FBI investigators also determined that Pollard met with three Pakistanis and an Iranian foreigner in an attempt to broker arms in 1985.

The US government continues to state that Pollard's espionage was far more severe, wide-ranging, and enduring than publicly acknowledged. Pollard revealed aspects of the U.S. intelligence gathering process, its "sources and methods". He sold numerous closely guarded state secrets, including the National Security Agency's ten-volume manual on how the U.S. gathers its signal intelligence, and disclosed the names of thousands of people who had cooperated with U.S. intelligence agencies, possibly endangering their lives. That's why many US officials, including Donald Rumsfeld, d!ck Cheney, George Tenet; several former U.S. Secretaries of Defense; a bi-partisan group of U.S. congressional leaders; and members of the U.S. intelligence community have in the past argued against clemency.

I've read that Israel gave some of the information to the Soviet Union, or that Pollard himself did, possibly in exchange for the release of Soviet Jews.

SixOfWands

Thu, Dec 31 2020, 11:21 am

Zeleze wrote:

I heard from poeple that think he is not a hero, even though he is Jeish, as he got paid for it, and any spy should not be know as a hero.

Difficult decsision on this.

Out interest, Do they have children ?
Never heard a mention, so imagine that not

Nebech

Pollard's first wife, Anne, was an accomplice in the spying, and was sentenced to 5 years in prison. He divorced her upon her release. I don't believe they had kids. They weren't married that long.

He married Esther while he was in prison, so clearly they don't have kids.

Pollard and Anne were arrested outside the Israeli embassy. She claims they went there for asylum when they realized they were going to be arrested, but were turned away.

chanchy123

Thu, Dec 31 2020, 2:04 pm

According to the midrash, the pasuk חמושים עלו בני ישראל ממצרים means that only a fifth of bnei Israel left Egypt and some say only 1 in 50 or 1 in 500,
What does this mean? Some Jews were so enmeshed in Egyptian society that they had no allegiance to am Israel, they belonged in Egypt and stayed in Egypt for better or for worse. Nothing is left from their culture, they faded along with the Egyptian empire.
Mordechai tells Queen Esther that she shouldn’t think she can escape Haman’s plan to annihilate the Jews, because if she keeps silent, she will be absorbed into the Persian royal family will be forever lost.
Jews who consider their American identity to be superior to their Jewish identity, who consider their allegiance to America superior to their national allegiance to their brethren are already lost.
Pollard discovered that your beloved homeland, which you identify with and consider your primary identifier, was withholding information about Arab country arming themselves against Israel, information, which if he kept to himself could cause the death of thousands of fellow Jews, maybe more. He did the Jewish thing and came to the rescue of his brethren.
And to you Jewish mothers who think that if you just prove your allegiance to America you will be saved: You and your forefathers will be lost, either physically like the German and Austrian Jews of the 1930s, or spiritually like the Jews of Egypt and the Jews of the USSR (not all of them obviously).
You are not saving your body or soul, you have your priorities all wrong.
Mashiach won’t come for you,
חמושים עלו בני ישראל ממצרים

chanchy123

Thu, Dec 31 2020, 2:07 pm

bananas4bananas wrote:

I think that if there's anything we can take out of this it should be just how deeply we're in galus

It’s your choice, you can be proactive and join the geula train. Even if you’re not a Zionist, start by allying with your Jewish brethren. Be proud of your Jewish identity.
This thread has convinced me that you are in galus, I am so happy that I am not.

Java

Thu, Dec 31 2020, 2:08 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

You are though-everywhere including E"Y is galus until Mashiach comes
galus is not physical- it's spiritual
and it has nothing to do with Zionism- I can love E"Y yet still believe that we're not yet at the time of the geula
Whatever I don't want to derail this thread so make a spinoff if you want to continue this discussion

chanchy123

Thu, Dec 31 2020, 2:16 pm

bananas4bananas wrote:

You are though-everywhere including E"Y is galus until Mashiach comes
galus is not physical- it's spiritual

Well let’s disagree on that. Mashiach won’t take you out of galus if you’re so entrenched in it that you are embarrassed by a Jew being proactive in defending his people.
Galus is both physical and spiritual, and I believe it is upon us to deliver ourselves on both plains, Hashem will help but we have to strive and take steps on our own. Even if you don’t believe this, your embarrassment proves with whom you ally. Being part of Klal Yisrael means you ally with us, your brothers not the country you happen to live in through the trials and tribulations of history.

Simcha36

Thu, Dec 31 2020, 2:19 pm

bananas4bananas wrote:

BH it's so wonderful but I really wish Israel wouldn't have made such a big deal of it... Sooo bad for Israel's PR and relationship with the US

You are correct, and it IS kept low flame bc of its sensitivity.
Hashem should give them both healthy and happy long life in EY!

Mazal Tov,
Baruch Matir Asurim!

Thank you Hashem x million times, we were so concerned about them...

and lets have Hakaras Hatov to the pres T. There are plenty in government who would oppose just bc he is Jewish

Hodu La hashem Ki Tov

May we continue to see Chassadim showered upon them and Klal Yisroel!

BadTichelDay

Thu, Dec 31 2020, 2:20 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

...
Jews who consider their American identity to be superior to their Jewish identity, who consider their allegiance to America superior to their national allegiance to their brethren are already lost.
Pollard discovered that your beloved homeland, which you identify with and consider your primary identifier, was withholding information about Arab country arming themselves against Israel, information, which if he kept to himself could cause the death of thousands of fellow Jews, maybe more. He did the Jewish thing and came to the rescue of his brethren. ...

THIS. Thank you chanchy123.

SixOfWands

Thu, Dec 31 2020, 2:24 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

Interesting that I quoted that recently with a different interpretation! That's the beauty of our mesorah, IMNSHO. That it holds so much, and is subject to so many different readings.

chanchy123 wrote:

Jews who consider their American identity to be superior to their Jewish identity, who consider their allegiance to America superior to their national allegiance to their brethren are already lost.
Pollard discovered that your beloved homeland, which you identify with and consider your primary identifier, was withholding information about Arab country arming themselves against Israel, information, which if he kept to himself could cause the death of thousands of fellow Jews, maybe more. He did the Jewish thing and came to the rescue of his brethren.

I disagree, but want to make clear that I respect your opinion as to whether Jews with an allegiance to a country other than Israel are "lost."

However, when you work for one government, and then decide your loyalties should lie elsewhere and betray the first by stealing classified documents, I'm not going to have a lot of sympathy when you get caught.