Jonathan Pollard made aliyah and is living in Yerushalayim

Cheiny

Thu, Dec 31 2020, 2:29 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

According to the midrash, the pasuk חמושים עלו בני ישראל ממצרים means that only a fifth of bnei Israel left Egypt and some say only 1 in 50 or 1 in 500,
What does this mean? Some Jews were so enmeshed in Egyptian society that they had no allegiance to am Israel, they belonged in Egypt and stayed in Egypt for better or for worse. Nothing is left from their culture, they faded along with the Egyptian empire.
Mordechai tells Queen Esther that she shouldn’t think she can escape Haman’s plan to annihilate the Jews, because if she keeps silent, she will be absorbed into the Persian royal family will be forever lost.
Jews who consider their American identity to be superior to their Jewish identity, who consider their allegiance to America superior to their national allegiance to their brethren are already lost.
Pollard discovered that your beloved homeland, which you identify with and consider your primary identifier, was withholding information about Arab country arming themselves against Israel, information, which if he kept to himself could cause the death of thousands of fellow Jews, maybe more. He did the Jewish thing and came to the rescue of his brethren.
And to you Jewish mothers who think that if you just prove your allegiance to America you will be saved: You and your forefathers will be lost, either physically like the German and Austrian Jews of the 1930s, or spiritually like the Jews of Egypt and the Jews of the USSR (not all of them obviously).
You are not saving your body or soul, you have your priorities all wrong.
Mashiach won’t come for you,
חמושים עלו בני ישראל ממצרים

Yup. The eirev rav is alive and well.

chanchy123

Thu, Dec 31 2020, 2:32 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

I disagree, but want to make clear that I respect your opinion as to whether Jews with an allegiance to a country other than Israel are "lost."

However, when you work for one government, and then decide your loyalties should lie elsewhere and betray the first by stealing classified documents, I'm not going to have a lot of sympathy when you get caught.

I’m not talking politics I’m taking Klal Yisrael. If you know something that can cause the death of your brethren you do whatever you can to save those lives. Because Klal Yisrael comes first. Pollard is a national hero in Israel, not because he worked for the Israeli government, but because he actively saved Jewish lives. Because when he had to choose between being a good American and a good Jew he chose to be a good Jew - this is impossible for an American Jew who sees their future and the future of their descendants in America to stomach.
I’m not talking about Zionism here, but about priorities, allegiance, and identity.

SixOfWands

Thu, Dec 31 2020, 2:33 pm

Cheiny wrote:

Are you serious? Why put a damper on such a beautiful, long awaited moment by unnecessarily and negatively tying it to politics??

Of course, the Israelis -- you can read that as Netanyahu -- could have obviated the situation years ago. After his partial confession, Pollard was put under surveillance, but not taken into custody. On November 21, 1985, he and his wife (Anne) tried to gain asylum at the Israeli Embassy in Washington, D. C., where Netanyahu was Israeli Ambassador to the USA, but they were ordered to leave by Israeli guards. FBI agents arrested Pollard as soon as he left embassy property.

Israel also claimed that Pollard worked for an unauthorized rogue operation, a position they maintained for more than ten years.

Cheiny

Thu, Dec 31 2020, 2:34 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

Totally agree. The same ones criticizing him are those who also feel Pres.Trump’s many unbelievably gracious actions towards Israel and out community are inconsequential and not even worthy of appreciation. Sad.

SixOfWands

Thu, Dec 31 2020, 2:35 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

And as I said, I respect that's your opinion.

We're not going to convince one another, and I recognize that as well.

Do you know if any of the people whose lives he endangered by giving them to Israel, which reportedly passed them on to Russia, were also Jews?

Dina2018

Thu, Dec 31 2020, 3:09 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Pollard's first wife, Anne, was an accomplice in the spying, and was sentenced to 5 years in prison. He divorced her upon her release. I don't believe they had kids. They weren't married that long.

He married Esther while he was in prison, so clearly they don't have kids.

Pollard and Anne were arrested outside the Israeli embassy. She claims they went there for asylum when they realized they were going to be arrested, but were turned away.

Yes Israel gave orders not to give them asylum in the embassy. They were arrested in front of the gates of the embassy when they were turned away.

cbsp

Thu, Dec 31 2020, 5:07 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Do you know if any of the people whose lives he endangered by giving them to Israel, which reportedly passed them on to Russia, were also Jews?

Not so clear that your position is accurate. Seems to be the result of misinformation disseminated by Aldrich Ames:

https://www.jonathanpollard.org/ames.htm

There are links on this page to numerous articles regarding the matter.

PinkFridge

Thu, Dec 31 2020, 6:19 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

There is a shiur on YU Torah by Mrs. Michal Horowitz on the concept of dirshu es sholom ha'ir and being good citizens. Unfortunately I can't find the link right now.

PinkFridge

Thu, Dec 31 2020, 6:21 pm

And Six, I realize that it might be more complex. I'm glad I don't have to be the one to do the research and make the decisions and do the pundit stuff. At this point, I think most people would say, let them be. Let them continue to go ahead and live the quiet under the radar lives they've been living the past few years. I'm glad they're free to live in EY with no further restrictions.

SixOfWands

Thu, Dec 31 2020, 7:57 pm

cbsp wrote:

That is certainly Pollard's position.

However, there is little question that Israel gave information to the Soviets in exchange for release of Jews. CIA director William Casey complained: 'The Israelis used Pollard to obtain our attack plan against the USSR - all of it. The co-ordinates, the firing locations, the sequences. And for guess who? The Soviets.' See https://www.theguardian.com/wo.....rger1 There was also very little doubt that Israeli information got to the Soviet Union even without Israel's actions -- there were leaks and moles and whatnot.

A 2008 Department of Defense report states that Pollard and Anne spied for Israel and China. https://fas.org/sgp/library/changes.pdf

Neither have anything to do with Aldrich Ames' claims.

I have no problem with his parole in 2015, or his release now. But I'm certainly not lauding him.

PinkFridge

Thu, Dec 31 2020, 9:15 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

It’s your choice, you can be proactive and join the geula train. Even if you’re not a Zionist, start by allying with your Jewish brethren. Be proud of your Jewish identity.
This thread has convinced me that you are in galus, I am so happy that I am not.

You mean some of us are physically not in Eretz Yisrael.
We are all in galus. It is important that we all realize that if we are to greet a rebuilt Yerushalayim.
Please don't get me wrong. It's beautiful to be in EY right now. It's a great zechus. The avira is still machkim. And the people... you are certainly blessed.
But you're still in galus.

PinkFridge

Thu, Dec 31 2020, 9:16 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

Well let’s disagree on that. Mashiach won’t take you out of galus if you’re so entrenched in it that you are embarrassed by a Jew being proactive in defending his people.
Galus is both physical and spiritual, and I believe it is upon us to deliver ourselves on both plains, Hashem will help but we have to strive and take steps on our own. Even if you don’t believe this, your embarrassment proves with whom you ally. Being part of Klal Yisrael means you ally with us, your brothers not the country you happen to live in through the trials and tribulations of history.

Ok, you've clarified. Thanks.