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No - I don't want life to go back to normal
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, Dec 30 2020, 6:22 pm
sushilover wrote:
This thread kind of reminds me of this Peanuts cartoon:


OP says something pretty basic- she is pointing out that she is not willing to settle for life pre-Covid. She wants so much more than that. Anyone arguing with that is either misreading her OP or looking for a fight.



Hahaha. Yes exactly! Perfect peanuts comic. Thanks! I thought it was simple too
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Dec 30 2020, 11:45 pm
Look, nobody is saying she doesn't want Moshiach.

But we are not in control of whether Moshiach comes. We can daven and do mitzvot, but we know from past experience that this is no guarantee of bringing Moshiach.

However, we can actually effect change in improving our current situation (develop vaccines, SD, wear masks, find ways to cope with the changes, etc.) so let's do that so we are not miserable in the meantime.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 31 2020, 7:43 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:


That's not anything to fight about. Its facts. Mashiach = closeness to Hashem in which we cannot obtain in galus



.


which has nothing to do with life before or after COVID.
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Dec 31 2020, 8:19 am
zaq wrote:
which has nothing to do with life before or after COVID.



It doesn't. I know. I never said it did. Banging head Banging head

Wow. Whats so hard to understand.
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cbsp




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 31 2020, 8:26 am
DrMom wrote:
Look, nobody is saying she doesn't want Moshiach.

But we are not in control of whether Moshiach comes. We can daven and do mitzvot, but we know from past experience that this is no guarantee of bringing Moshiach.

However, we can actually effect change in improving our current situation (develop vaccines, SD, wear masks, find ways to cope with the changes, etc.) so let's do that so we are not miserable in the meantime.


I think you're missing her point.

OP is not saying life now with covid is good. She is saying it's hard and we're davening to be out of the situation. And we'll do whatever physical actions are necessary (vaccine, etc) in whatever level available.

But instead of davening to go back to the way life was pre-covid we could recognize that pre-covid was also not ideal - and intensify our efforts (whatever spiritual form that takes) towards the ultimate geulah.

Like the mashal with the wayward homeless prince who asks for a warm coat to ward off the cold instead of begging to be re-admitted to the king's palace.
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mandksima




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 31 2020, 8:44 am
zaq wrote:
which has nothing to do with life before or after COVID.


It depends on how you're looking at the big picture. I feel it has everything to do with it. Many rabbis, Kabbalists and Gedolim are talking about Covid being the transition into moshiach's era. So, before was very different than how it is now and how it will be when we are fully in the time of moshiach. If covid didn't make one desire moshiach more than ever, the point of it was lost. Nothing is random. There has to be a line that separated life before, the time during and our new era after. There is no reason to believe we won't go into moshiach time directly or if not, there will be an even bigger distraction first. Not necessarily bad but something shocking to get us out of continuing with our everything normal as can be rut. Hashem wants us to give up our control on life, our assumptions of using science to defeat all and look to rely on him alone. Relying on masks, SD or vaccines to give a false sense of absolute security heads towards avodah zara. We can optimize our hishtadlut and follow the guidelines but that's it. No one really knows how to stop Covid as it is still an ongoing mystery. One study that promotes something is met by another study or doctor that demotes it. One can only do their best at the moment but needs to cry out to Hashem that this all end quickly with Moshiach. If one just wishes for back to normal, one loses the push that Hashem gave us. Jewish lives lost shouldn't be in vain. We have to see it as a repeat of history which we are warned will simulate the time before moshiach is revealed. Just like the extra work Paroah made us do even after that galut's moshiach Moshe arrived on the scene and announced to Bnei Yisroel they would be redeemed, was to make the Jews scream out to Hashem and beg for the geula, not to wish life go back to the time they were slaves but had straw provided for them. The loss to our communities because of Covid should make us all scream out for the geula that is at our doorstep! Don't ignore it's vital role in uniting our outcries.
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amother
OP


 

Post Thu, Dec 31 2020, 8:47 am
mandksima wrote:
It depends on how you're looking at the big picture. I feel it has everything to do with it. Many rabbis, Kabbalists and Gedolim are talking about Covid being the transition into moshiach's era. So, before was very different than how it is now and how it will be when we are fully in the time of moshiach. If covid didn't make one desire moshiach more than ever, the point of it was lost. Nothing is random. There has to be a line that separated life before, the time during and our new era after. There is no reason to believe we won't go into moshiach time directly or if not, there will be an even bigger distraction first. Not necessarily bad but something shocking to get us out of continuing with our everything normal as can be rut. Hashem wants us to give up our control on life, our assumptions of using science to defeat all and look to rely on him alone. Relying on masks, SD or vaccines to give a false sense of absolute security heads towards avodah zara. We can optimize our hishtadlut and follow the guidelines but that's it. No one really knows how to stop Covid as it is still an ongoing mystery. One study that promotes something is met by another study or doctor that demotes it. One can only do their best at the moment but needs to cry out to Hashem that this all end quickly with Moshiach. If one just wishes for back to normal, one loses the push that Hashem gave us. Jewish lives lost shouldn't be in vain. We have to see it as a repeat of history which we are warned will simulate the time before moshiach is revealed. Just like the extra work Paroah made us do even after that galut's moshiach Moshe arrived on the scene and announced to Bnei Yisroel they would be redeemed, was to make the Jews scream out to Hashem and beg for the geula, not to wish life go back to the time they were slaves but had straw provided for them. The loss to our communities because of Covid should make us all scream out for the geula that is at our doorstep! Don't ignore it's vital role in uniting our outcries.



You said this perfectly.... I dont think some people here will be able to comprehend it. But I 1000% agree with all of the above.
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Proudly Right




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 31 2020, 9:18 am
ShishKabob wrote:
We should be very vocal and verbal that we need Moshiach Now! The yidden in Mitzrayim got a yeshua because they were yelling and screaming! that's where yelling and screaming of pain brings something good.


The Yidden in Mitzrayim were redeemed because they stood strong in the face of Egyptian culture and didn't assimilate!
We should follow their tactic.
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the world's best mom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 31 2020, 9:51 am
DrMom wrote:
Huh?

Life pre- vs mid-pandemic is like comparing having a beat up Ford to having... a beat up pogo stick. Given those two choices, I'll take the Ford.

At no point did I have that Lamborghini, so why should I miss it?
Oh, but we did have the Lamborghini! (Not you personally, but we as a nation.) In a different lifetime, so long ago that we can't remember it. And the sad thing is that we can't remember it so we have settled for our beat up ford and we're happy to stay with it.

When each person is niftar, Hashem asks them "Tzipisa Liyeshua?" Did you hope and dream for Mashiach to come?

Anyone who doesn't hope for Mashiach every day needs to do some work on reminding themselves why we need him. And the reason is that the world will be full of knowledge of Hashem, which is the most amazing thing that can happen.
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AhuvasIma




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 31 2020, 9:57 am
I just played this on a different thread, but it's exactly what you're saying, we're headed back into slavery:

https://youtu.be/C1-0XKYAZII
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Dec 31 2020, 10:00 pm
Proudly Right wrote:
The Yidden in Mitzrayim were redeemed because they stood strong in the face of Egyptian culture and didn't assimilate!
We should follow their tactic.


OT, but now you bring up an interesting point. We were all taught that the Children of Israel in Egypt had descended to the 49th level of impurity, and had they descended to the 50th, they'd have been irredeemable and would have remained enslaved forever.

Yet the KBH promised Avraham that his descendants would be enslaved in a land not their own, and would ultimately be redeemed after 400 years. So they were not really in any danger of being enslaved forever, even had they reached the 50th level of impurity, were they? Furthermore, they would have been redeemed even if they HAD abandoned their Jewish names, language and dress, because the KBH promised Avraham that his descendants would be redeemed, period, not "if they retained their Jewish culture" and not "if they managed to stay out of the 50th level of impurity," but unconditionally.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 01 2021, 6:43 am
AhuvasIma wrote:
I just played this on a different thread, but it's exactly what you're saying, we're headed back into slavery:

https://youtu.be/C1-0XKYAZII


Before I listen, who is Catherine Austin Fitts and why should I care enough to give over nearly an hour of my life to hear? What kind of slavery is she talking about? I doubt we speak the same language, certainly not the same dialect, when it comes to spiritual slavery. Thanks.
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shoshanim999




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 01 2021, 7:28 am
mandksima wrote:
It depends on how you're looking at the big picture. I feel it has everything to do with it. Many rabbis, Kabbalists and Gedolim are talking about Covid being the transition into moshiach's era. So, before was very different than how it is now and how it will be when we are fully in the time of moshiach. If covid didn't make one desire moshiach more than ever, the point of it was lost. Nothing is random. There has to be a line that separated life before, the time during and our new era after. There is no reason to believe we won't go into moshiach time directly or if not, there will be an even bigger distraction first. Not necessarily bad but something shocking to get us out of continuing with our everything normal as can be rut. Hashem wants us to give up our control on life, our assumptions of using science to defeat all and look to rely on him alone. Relying on masks, SD or vaccines to give a false sense of absolute security heads towards avodah zara. We can optimize our hishtadlut and follow the guidelines but that's it. No one really knows how to stop Covid as it is still an ongoing mystery. One study that promotes something is met by another study or doctor that demotes it. One can only do their best at the moment but needs to cry out to Hashem that this all end quickly with Moshiach. If one just wishes for back to normal, one loses the push that Hashem gave us. Jewish lives lost shouldn't be in vain. We have to see it as a repeat of history which we are warned will simulate the time before moshiach is revealed. Just like the extra work Paroah made us do even after that galut's moshiach Moshe arrived on the scene and announced to Bnei Yisroel they would be redeemed, was to make the Jews scream out to Hashem and beg for the geula, not to wish life go back to the time they were slaves but had straw provided for them. The loss to our communities because of Covid should make us all scream out for the geula that is at our doorstep! Don't ignore it's vital role in uniting our outcries.




I have a issue with the bolded because there have been many times in this era that gedolim have said moshiach is iminent. I would imagine in previous generations people were told the same. It seems that we don't know what will bring moshiach or when he will come.
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shoshanim999




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 01 2021, 7:35 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
We are all in this together. I can't say I've changed too much more as I am always working on myself... but I don't see needing or wanting mashiach as a personal thing.

My life was and is great before corona and now Baruch Hashem...




I honestly don't get these comments - who doesn't want mashiach? Kind of scary that people are so content in this world for what it is has to offer as is



The era of mosiach and what exactly it will bring is a mystery. You compared it to a lamborghini. I disagree with your comparison because we know and understand what exactly a lamborghini is. We don't have that understanding regarding what the arrival of moshiach will bring.

Hashem killed 80% of the jews in Mitsrayim before the geula. They weren't worthy of the redemption. Are you sure you are worthy? I'm not sure about myself or my family. Do you ever speak loshon hora? Is your bein adam l'chaveiro perfect? Will hashem basically tally up everyone's cheshbon when moshiach comes and administer schar v'onesh? Are you certain you're ready for that?

Since we don't exactly know what the era of moshiach will bring I think that many people who have comfortable lives now are content with things the way they are.
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elisheva25




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 01 2021, 7:36 am
mandksima wrote:
It depends on how you're looking at the big picture. I feel it has everything to do with it. Many rabbis, Kabbalists and Gedolim are talking about Covid being the transition into moshiach's era. So, before was very different than how it is now and how it will be when we are fully in the time of moshiach. If covid didn't make one desire moshiach more than ever, the point of it was lost. Nothing is random. There has to be a line that separated life before, the time during and our new era after. There is no reason to believe we won't go into moshiach time directly or if not, there will be an even bigger distraction first. Not necessarily bad but something shocking to get us out of continuing with our everything normal as can be rut. Hashem wants us to give up our control on life, our assumptions of using science to defeat all and look to rely on him alone. Relying on masks, SD or vaccines to give a false sense of absolute security heads towards avodah zara. We can optimize our hishtadlut and follow the guidelines but that's it. No one really knows how to stop Covid as it is still an ongoing mystery. One study that promotes something is met by another study or doctor that demotes it. One can only do their best at the moment but needs to cry out to Hashem that this all end quickly with Moshiach. If one just wishes for back to normal, one loses the push that Hashem gave us. Jewish lives lost shouldn't be in vain. We have to see it as a repeat of history which we are warned will simulate the time before moshiach is revealed. Just like the extra work Paroah made us do even after that galut's moshiach Moshe arrived on the scene and announced to Bnei Yisroel they would be redeemed, was to make the Jews scream out to Hashem and beg for the geula, not to wish life go back to the time they were slaves but had straw provided for them. The loss to our communities because of Covid should make us all scream out for the geula that is at our doorstep! Don't ignore it's vital role in uniting our outcries.



I hear your point . And it makes sense . But I have same issue with your post as another poster here.... for years & years ... for sure this past century we have Gedolim & Mekubalim saying Moshiach is imminent .
And I am guessing ... that for centuries is Eastern Europe through all the suffering & pogroms they were saying the same things
So than we really have to define what does imminent mean?
Maybe we don’t have a good understanding of the word
Or maybe our Gedolim also don’t know
What about the Black Plague ? Spanish Flu of 1918... Was Moshiach imminent than ?
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 01 2021, 7:45 am
shoshanim999 wrote:
I have a issue with the bolded because there have been many times in this era that gedolim have said moshiach is iminent. I would imagine in previous generations people were told the same. It seems that we don't know what will bring moshiach or when he will come.


I agree. But I otherwise think the post you quoted has a lot of valuable food for thought.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 01 2021, 7:49 am
shoshanim999 wrote:
The era of mosiach and what exactly it will bring is a mystery. You compared it to a lamborghini. I disagree with your comparison because we know and understand what exactly a lamborghini is. We don't have that understanding regarding what the arrival of moshiach will bring.

Hashem killed 80% of the jews in Mitsrayim before the geula. They weren't worthy of the redemption. Are you sure you are worthy? I'm not sure about myself or my family. Do you ever speak loshon hora? Is your bein adam l'chaveiro perfect? Will hashem basically tally up everyone's cheshbon when moshiach comes and administer schar v'onesh? Are you certain you're ready for that?

Since we don't exactly know what the era of moshiach will bring I think that many people who have comfortable lives now are content with things the way they are.


I don't know. And I daven that I may be worthy. But I am a lot more optimistic and would never say, I think I'm safer here now so please, Hashem, let things be status quo.
What we have to do is say Aleinu with kavana. Not ego or our own concerns but just the kavod Shamayim. We should be yearning for geulah (as in the middle brachos of Shemoneh Esrei, several of which present a progression and discrete aspects of geulah) because the world will be filled with dai'ah es Hashem, and use our koach hadimyon to feel simcha at the prospect, not fear, however it will play out.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 01 2021, 7:50 am
elisheva25 wrote:
I hear your point . And it makes sense . But I have same issue with your post as another poster here.... for years & years ... for sure this past century we have Gedolim & Mekubalim saying Moshiach is imminent .
And I am guessing ... that for centuries is Eastern Europe through all the suffering & pogroms they were saying the same things
So than we really have to define what does imminent mean?
Maybe we don’t have a good understanding of the word
Or maybe our Gedolim also don’t know
What about the Black Plague ? Spanish Flu of 1918... Was Moshiach imminent than ?


But we have to listen to the messages. Everything, big or small, happens as a wake up call to connect to Hashem.
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healthymom1




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 01 2021, 8:03 am
shoshanim999 wrote:
The era of mosiach and what exactly it will bring is a mystery. You compared it to a lamborghini. I disagree with your comparison because we know and understand what exactly a lamborghini is. We don't have that understanding regarding what the arrival of moshiach will bring.

Hashem killed 80% of the jews in Mitsrayim before the geula. They weren't worthy of the redemption. Are you sure you are worthy? I'm not sure about myself or my family. Do you ever speak loshon hora? Is your bein adam l'chaveiro perfect? Will hashem basically tally up everyone's cheshbon when moshiach comes and administer schar v'onesh? Are you certain you're ready for that?

Since we don't exactly know what the era of moshiach will bring I think that many people who have comfortable lives now are content with things the way they are.





The comparison of Lamborghini is to someone who is content with beat up Ford after never seeing ANY moving vehicle... so I think the comparison is still valid.

If you think about it - real Gd fearing and loving Jews are about 10%-20% of all the Jewish people in the world. Hashem made us human - of course we aren't perfect. But if we are striving to be better and not content in how we act or treat others and the halachos...that yes we will be deserving of Mashiach.

We were never supposed to be content in galus...
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shoshanim999




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 01 2021, 8:09 am
PinkFridge wrote:
But we have to listen to the messages. Everything, big or small, happens as a wake up call to connect to Hashem.



I think the message gets muddled when we attach things that are not verifiably true to it.


Meaning if we say that Covid happened because there was talking in shul, extravagant weddings and simchos, or because yeshivos didn't accommodate families that chose not to vaccinate, that is an explanation of how hashem runs the world. We want to think hashem applies human logic because it makes sense to us and we like things to make sense. The problem is that hushem runs the world in ways that are not reconcilable with human logic. We don't understand why anything happens.

So what is the message of the pandemic? Some will say that hashem is angry about $100,000 weddings and we need to stop them. Others will say that often the people who make things wedding are the biggest balei tzaddaka in the neighborhood and it's not a problem. What's more is that these weddings give parnassah to so many people like 8 members of the band, caterer, photographer, the guy who runs the hall,ect. But again, what exactly is the message? What is hashem telling us by bringing covid? Is it that we should in general terms be better? Ok, I can hear that.
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