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No - I don't want life to go back to normal
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the world's best mom




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 01 2021, 11:40 am
shoshanim999 wrote:


Hashem killed 80% of the jews in Mitsrayim before the geula. They weren't worthy of the redemption. Are you sure you are worthy? I'm not sure about myself or my family. Do you ever speak loshon hora? Is your bein adam l'chaveiro perfect? Will hashem basically tally up everyone's cheshbon when moshiach comes and administer schar v'onesh? Are you certain you're ready for that?

Right now, most Jews are not frum. More than 80%.

I once heard that a guy became a baal teshuva, and he said he doesn't want Moshiach to come yet because he's not so great yet. He wants a chance to become better before Moshiach comes so he will be judged well. His rav said that wherever you are striving to get to, you will be judged as if you are there. If you are striving to become a tzaddik, you will be considered a tzaddik. If you don't care about Yiddishkeit, then you will not be considered a good person.

In that light, I would hope many of us will be zocheh to join Mashiach.
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shoshanim999




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jan 01 2021, 2:01 pm
the world's best mom wrote:
Right now, most Jews are not frum. More than 80%.

I once heard that a guy became a baal teshuva, and he said he doesn't want Moshiach to come yet because he's not so great yet. He wants a chance to become better before Moshiach comes so he will be judged well. His rav said that wherever you are striving to get to, you will be judged as if you are there. If you are striving to become a tzaddik, you will be considered a tzaddik. If you don't care about Yiddishkeit, then you will not be considered a good person.

In that light, I would hope many of us will be zocheh to join Mashiach.




I think we're doing alot of assuming that we know hashems chashbon.

1. You're drawing the line at frum vs. not frum. That hashems criteria will be frum people will be zoche to greet moshiach. Maybe the line is loshon hara? People who don't speak loshon hara will be zoche to greet moshiach and others won't. Or maybe the line is any of the other 20 things I can think of.

2. Again, how does this rav know hashems cheshbon? It's a feel good story, but is the rav right? In theory that would mean a person can live 70 years as a rasha and decide he wants to do teshuva and become a good person and learn torah. If he dies right then, he's a tzadik because that's what he was striving for? Doesn't sound right, and I don't know how anyone can possibly say they know how hashem judges things.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 02 2021, 11:21 am
mandksima wrote:
It depends on how you're looking at the big picture. I feel it has everything to do with it. Many rabbis, Kabbalists and Gedolim are talking about Covid being the transition into moshiach's era. So, before was very different than how it is now and how it will be when we are fully in the time of moshiach. If covid didn't make one desire moshiach more than ever, the point of it was lost. Nothing is random. There has to be a line that separated life before, the time during and our new era after. There is no reason to believe we won't go into moshiach time directly or if not, there will be an even bigger distraction first. Not necessarily bad but something shocking to get us out of continuing with our everything normal as can be rut. Hashem wants us to give up our control on life, our assumptions of using science to defeat all and look to rely on him alone. Relying on masks, SD or vaccines to give a false sense of absolute security heads towards avodah zara. We can optimize our hishtadlut and follow the guidelines but that's it. No one really knows how to stop Covid as it is still an ongoing mystery. One study that promotes something is met by another study or doctor that demotes it. One can only do their best at the moment but needs to cry out to Hashem that this all end quickly with Moshiach. If one just wishes for back to normal, one loses the push that Hashem gave us. Jewish lives lost shouldn't be in vain. We have to see it as a repeat of history which we are warned will simulate the time before moshiach is revealed. Just like the extra work Paroah made us do even after that galut's moshiach Moshe arrived on the scene and announced to Bnei Yisroel they would be redeemed, was to make the Jews scream out to Hashem and beg for the geula, not to wish life go back to the time they were slaves but had straw provided for them. The loss to our communities because of Covid should make us all scream out for the geula that is at our doorstep! Don't ignore it's vital role in uniting our outcries.

I disagree. The situation is challenging, but not hopeless. You claim we know nothing about this disease, and that is simply not true: We started out not knowing anything, but now we understand quite a bit.

You claim that taking action to reduce the spread (wearing masks, SD) and vaccines = avodah zorah.

Do you treat other diseases like this? Do you vaccinate against other diseases (maybe you're an anti-vaxer, I don't know)? Do you think that getting regular exercise and trying to eat healthy and seeing a doctor when you are sick and getting regular mammograms = avodah zara?

That's not avodah zara, that's hishtaldut.

-----

Let's put it this way:

If, G-d forbid, you or one of your children ever falls get seriously ill, do you want your doctor to treat you and try to restore your previous state of health, or to just give up an daven for Moshiach?

I would think that you would want him to restore your health and ALSO daven for Moshiach.

One endeavor need not negate the other.
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mandksima




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 02 2021, 2:25 pm
shoshanim999 wrote:
I have a issue with the bolded because there have been many times in this era that gedolim have said moshiach is iminent. I would imagine in previous generations people were told the same. It seems that we don't know what will bring moshiach or when he will come.


Have you listened to any shiurim lately? They all talk about the differences. I admit, I have been obsessed with all talk about moshiach for the past 6 years at least. I have listened to almost every shiur I have come across on the subject as well as every book. So, I am also doing the same comparison and it is not just me who has said we are at the END of the geula process and almost at the door of moshiach's reveal. There is a checklist of sorts and we have been able to check everything off. Earlier generations had no such thing and if Hashem wanted to bring moshiach early, his coming could have bypassed certain requirements but now we are past that and Hashem has to introduce moshiach's time in order that we don't drop into the 50th level of tumah as we almost did in mitzrayim. Our geula will mimic the time before the geula of mitzrayim and we see the same drop off morality now. Earlier generations, for instance, had the younger generation very respectful of elders,a general sense of modesty and keeping to limits of s-xual conduct, at least not in public. Now everything is out in the open, anything goes, the chutzpa of young people is out of control and there is no more shared sense of morality among the nations. The Zohar talks of the latest moshiach can come and we are approaching the very end. Many things have to happen before the year 6000, including a 40 year reign of moshiach plus 210-214 years of techiat hameitim but it could be the latter would coincide with the former. Either way, that leaves 5 years and things are going downhill fast. I don't think Hashem can let us wait any longer and the final election results may increase this necessity. You can look up any shiur on the subject from Rabbi Mendel Kessin in Lakewood. He is one of many rabbis who speak on a constant basis about the subject. It doesn't have to be out the mouth of an unrelatable kabbalist. I haven't heard ANY rabbi not agree with the assessment that we are clearly in the days right before moshiach.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 02 2021, 2:39 pm
mandksima wrote:
Have you listened to any shiurim lately? They all talk about the differences. I admit, I have been obsessed with all talk about moshiach for the past 6 years at least. I have listened to almost every shiur I have come across on the subject as well as every book. So, I am also doing the same comparison and it is not just me who has said we are at the END of the geula process and almost at the door of moshiach's reveal. There is a checklist of sorts and we have been able to check everything off. Earlier generations had no such thing and if Hashem wanted to bring moshiach early, his coming could have bypassed certain requirements but now we are past that and Hashem has to introduce moshiach's time in order that we don't drop into the 50th level of tumah as we almost did in mitzrayim. Our geula will mimic the time before the geula of mitzrayim and we see the same drop off morality now. Earlier generations, for instance, had the younger generation very respectful of elders,a general sense of modesty and keeping to limits of s-xual conduct, at least not in public. Now everything is out in the open, anything goes, the chutzpa of young people is out of control and there is no more shared sense of morality among the nations. The Zohar talks of the latest moshiach can come and we are approaching the very end. Many things have to happen before the year 6000, including a 40 year reign of moshiach plus 210-214 years of techiat hameitim but it could be the latter would coincide with the former. Either way, that leaves 5 years and things are going downhill fast. I don't think Hashem can let us wait any longer and the final election results may increase this necessity. You can look up any shiur on the subject from Rabbi Mendel Kessin in Lakewood. He is one of many rabbis who speak on a constant basis about the subject. It doesn't have to be out the mouth of an unrelatable kabbalist. I haven't heard ANY rabbi not agree with the assessment that we are clearly in the days right before moshiach.
,
I sure hope you're right, but I'm not sure how anybody can be so sure the Moshiach's arrival is imminent.

During WWII and the Shoah, many rabbanim predicted that surely the Moshiach would come right away. He didn't.

There have been other times in history when licentiousness was the norm (the Romans were known to be pretty lewd).

There have certainly been other time periods of international catastrophe (2 world wars, for example).

I'll keep an open mind and keep hoping, but I will continue to plod on and do my best in this life, as I cannot bank on the Messianic Era starting anytime soon.

Maybe you think I am an apikoret.
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mandksima




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 02 2021, 2:53 pm
DrMom wrote:
I disagree. The situation is challenging, but not hopeless. You claim we know nothing about this disease, and that is simply not true: We started out not knowing anything, but now we understand quite a bit.

You claim that taking action to reduce the spread (wearing masks, SD) and vaccines = avodah zorah.

Do you treat other diseases like this? Do you vaccinate against other diseases (maybe you're an anti-vaxer, I don't know)? Do you think that getting regular exercise and trying to eat healthy and seeing a doctor when you are sick and getting regular mammograms = avodah zara?

That's not avodah zara, that's hishtaldut.

-----

Let's put it this way:

If, G-d forbid, you or one of your children ever falls get seriously ill, do you want your doctor to treat you and try to restore your previous state of health, or to just give up an daven for Moshiach?

I would think that you would want him to restore your health and ALSO daven for Moshiach.

One endeavor need not negate the other.


Nothing I wrote goes against what you write. I clearly said we can do our hishtadlut and wear masks, SD and vaccinate BUT it heads towards avodah zara when the reliance on our safety is placed solely on those and not on Hashem. Don't you know people who are frum Jews but aren't thinking about anything but getting life back to normal? Covid is not getting them to think about anything spiritual, definitely not equating it to the coming of moshiach and they are treating the vaccine as an end all when it isn't even being promised to do that. They just fear to the point of putting all of their faith in it and that is avodah zara. I don't judge them because fear can cause one to not think clearly and I try to get my posts to open eyes of people who have this perspective which is not Torah based. Doctors don't heal from their own abilities alone but they are given permission to heal from Hashem. Yes, I go to doctors and use medications when necessary. My life as well as some of my kid's lives are only here because I put trust in the doctor treating but it was not without davening to Hashem to help them be the shaliach to heal us. I don't think we disagree.

There still are doctors and scientists saying the science and evidence isn't clear on whether all 3 of those things are helping or harming so I don't think it is ok to say that 100% it is one way or the other. I don't obtain my understanding of the virus through social media and the news channels like most do. I simply don't trust them to show both views so I read and listen to a lot of doctors and scientists who do talk about their views which contradict what often people are listening to. We may understand a bit more than we started but when we have doctors going against certain protocols or government shutdowns, it should make people question why. I want to hear what they have to say. I hear people talking about the vaccine as a moshiach in itself and that is scary to me. It is as if one is a koffer if they even question anything about it. It is a big unknown and you can take it and daven that it should work and not have bad side effects but in no way is it our moshiach to bring us back to the normal life before Covid. I think if people are wary of it, they have a right to make sure it is safe before they take it and shouldn't be judged that they aren't doing their hishtadlut as there just isn't enough study done on it to know any absolutes. My agenda is only to know the truth as much as I can and to look at life through the eyes of the Torah.
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mandksima




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 02 2021, 3:09 pm
DrMom wrote:

Maybe you think I am an apikoret.

G-d forbid! You're an awesome Jewish holy mother!
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Momof14




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jan 02 2021, 3:17 pm
I agree with Ok that we want and yearn for much more than our pre covid life was. We all felt that are world was shaking on its beams. We see that we can't rely on any given that we relied on till now. It's sobering .meant to awaken us to the fact that what we know is not all there is!
We are supposed to want and yearn for Moshich. No way do we have to run from the idea of Moshiach out of fear! I'm afraid of Gaius , of being at the mercy of non jews. I'm afraid of all the hardships and sorrows of our nation. I'm not afraid of Moshiach!
H -shem loves us much more than we love ourselves. H- shem is the Baal Rachamim. Were in good Hands .
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