Debt or Public School?

imorethanamother

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 10:08 pm

emma07 wrote:

sorry but it’s not true!! My kids are all in public not because I can’t afford it but because the education is amazing . We live in one of the best school districts in the country ... it all comes grim the home. I know many people who went to yeshiva and are either not religious anymore to the point of marrying a non Jew or less religious then the were.

Really? You send to public school, even when you can afford private school? Even if your kids aren't special needs? Why? You think the most important thing in life is that a child gets a good education, and that child's social and cultural needs don't matter?

imorethanamother

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 10:11 pm

amother [ White ] wrote:

Beverly Hills has a lot of secular Jews attending and is multi-cultural. Religion isn't taught at public schools but parents sending to public schools don't have issues with children being exposed to other cultures and religions.

Now if you want to really tread into dangerous waters, the red states REALLY have Xtian religious stuff going on in terms of Xtian prayers. There have been ACLU cases because of the non-separation of church and state. To my knowledge there are no such issues in the public schools in Beverly Hills, Scarsdale, Skokie, Los Angeles etc..

Please PM me. You are wrong. I'd love to prove it to you, but privately.

Religion is not expressly taught, but influenced. Again, it's not that they're making you play the Mother Mary and draw a cross on your forehead, it's that they don't believe Xmas trees and tinsel and caroling are religious. They don't think Halloween is religious. Or Valentines day. And they certainly won't discuss any of YOUR Jewish Holidays. Being gay is celebrated, discussed at length, and they watch movies that champion their struggles. Subversive gender ideas are now being taught as early as kindergarten - I'd be happy to link some educational curriculums that are being approved at the state level, in many blue states.

Or you can google. Examples abound.

emma07

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 10:12 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

social?? All my kids friends in school are Jewish ... don’t really see why they would be more social in yeshiva

avrahamama

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 10:13 pm

emma07 wrote:

If you feel like your home is strong enough it's a different story from OP who said her husband is otd.

And yes going otd does happen in yeshiva settings. But not with the same frequency or quickness. Don't kid yourself. I see kids that go to PS and have amazing hashkafa at home. It works for their family and it's working so far. But the parents are vigilant. Vigilant about friends, about curriculum, about even how they will participate in gym class. (Literally emailing gym teacher and saying their daughter will not be swimming with boys during gym class)

I know families that send to PS and dont have a commited family. The children are now essentially ignorant. Of kashrut standards. Of what a reliable hechsher is. Of what is appropriate to wear or watch.

You can't just shrug and say well it happens in yeshiva too.

You want make sure you have the best chances to achieve your goals.

emma07

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 10:20 pm

avrahamama wrote:

If you feel like your home is strong enough it's a different story from OP who said her husband is otd.

And yes going otd does happen in yeshiva settings. But not with the same frequency or quickness. Don't kid yourself. I see kids that go to PS and have amazing hashkafa at home. It works for their family and it's working so far. But the parents are vigilant. Vigilant about friends, about curriculum, about even how they will participate in gym class.

I know families that send to PS and dont have a commited family. The children are now essentially ignorant. Of kashrut standards. Of what a reliable hechsher is. Of what is appropriate to wear or watch.

You can't just shrug and say well it happens in yeshiva too.

You want make sure you have the best chances to achieve your goals.

listen it all comes down to what you teach your kids ... my kids are taught values from home that know what’s right and what’s is wrong .. my youngest one knows probably more about what is kosher or not then kids who go to yeshiva .
I am not saying it’s for everyone but for us it works.
For me personally I feel it’s a waste of money to send my kids to yeshiva when I pay so much in taxes and we have the best public schools around us. But you can’t judge if you never had your kids in both I have and trust me you can’t compare the education to yeshiva.
My kids all have private tutors coming for Hebrew .

Last edited by emma07 on Wed, Jan 06 2021, 6:52 am; edited 2 times in total

amother

White

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 10:22 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

I am completely familiar with the atmosphere of the Beverly Hills public schools. Most people do not think Valentines Day or Halloween are religious in the secular world. Nor do most of the parents in this district want their children to think that gay is something terrible. Many children have gay parents or other non-traditional families. These are public schools and lack of tolerance for being gay is a religious belief and public schools should be free of any religious instruction.

What you find appalling is pretty standard secular. I never suggested that it was a religious atmosphere - it just reflects modern culture.

I am not suggesting that a frum person should send to Beverly Hills or any other public school.

However, public schools are not the dens of horror that seem to be what many people commenting seem to think they are. That is solely what I was discussing - a secular parent would have no problems sending their child to one of the many high quality public schools.

And just to make sure - I am NOT suggesting public schools for frum families. I am merely correcting the idea that there is danger for a secular kid to go to school in a decent school district.

mha3484

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 10:26 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

I agree with this. I live in chicago across the street from a chicago public school and there is an Xmas tree in the lobby. The curriculum is so full of progressive social justice ideas that I can’t see how any frum person would be comfortable there.

writeread

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 10:35 pm

Everyone here so far was just giving their anecdotal evidence. While obviously each individual case will be different, there is hard data on the benefits of day school education.

The statistics clearly show that attending day school dramatically decreases intermarriage rates and increases rates of Jewish practice.

See
https://www.jstor.org/stable/23450186?seq=1

https://ejewishphilanthropy.co.....sary/

So, if you want the best chance of your children turning out religious, you should send to day school.

amother

Lime

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 11:02 pm

I worked in many public schools, some were very good public schools in good districts.

However, despite the fact that public school is supposed to be free of religion etc...they always have x-mas celebrations and parties etc. Even the public schools that are "great" still have so many things/influences that are not for frum children.

To say that it's okay to go to a good public school because it is good, and you have a great influence and a strong home frum environment to keep the children frum, is ridiculous because we all know that no matter what is going on at home, children spend most hours during the day at school, and nobody can say schools don't influence children too.

I am not judging anyone in dire financial states who say they are thinking of sending to public school, but if someone does have money for frum schools, it should be important to send to good frum schools because schools do influence children no matter how great the environment is at home.

ETA: I am someone who sacrifices and works long hours so that I can send my children to frum schools. I believe secular education is important too, and I sacrifice a lot and live very simply so that the majority of my income is put towards paying for frum schooling for my children.

emma07

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 11:16 pm

amother [ Lime ] wrote:

what I found ridiculous is judging someone else lifestyle....

amother

Linen

Wed, Jan 06 2021, 12:07 am

Pharaoh gave orders to all his people: “You must cast every boy who is born into the Nile, but you must let every girl live.” Exodus 1:22

By instructing his people to “let every girl live,” Pharaoh meant that the Jewish girls should be raised as Egyptians. He thus decreed that the boys be killed physically and the girls be killed spiritually. The decree to throw the boys into the Nile also alludes to immersing the Jews in Egyptian culture, for the Egyptians worshipped the Nile as the source of their livelihood and culture.

Egypt is the prototype of all exiles. In all exiles, the ruling culture urges us to raise our children in its ways, promising that this is the path to attain material and social success. As in Egypt, resisting these promises and ensuring that our children grow up cherishing the Torah’s values is what will guarantee their material, social, and spiritual happiness, as well as their freedom from the bonds of exile. theRebbe.org

#BestBubby

Wed, Jan 06 2021, 12:43 am

emma07 wrote:

listen it all comes down tovenaar you teach your kids ... my kids are taught values from home that know what’s right and what’s is wrong .. my youngest one knows privacy more about what is kosher or not then kids who go ti yeshiva .
I am not saying it’s for everyone but for us it works.
For me personally I feel it’s a waste of money to send my kids to yeshiva when I pay so much in taxes and we have the best public schools around us. But you can’t judge if you never had your kids in both I have and trust me you can’t compare the education to yeshiva.
My kids all have private tutors coming for Hebrew .

May I ask how old your children are, emma07?

amother

Floralwhite

Wed, Jan 06 2021, 2:14 am

writeread wrote:

Absolutely right, though to be fair, these studies include non-Orthodox schools, where the school effect may be greater than in homes where there's a lot of Jewish knowledge and practice.

But yes, saying that you know some adults who went to day school and are no longer frum, and you know religious public school graduates, isn't helpful. It's like saying you know someone who can barely read English who made millions in real estate, and an unemployed law school graduate, so there's no economic advantage in going to college. There will always be exceptions, but the numbers are clear. Just as college graduates overwhelmingly earn more than people who only finished high school, children who go to Jewish schools are significantly more likely than kids who go to public school to lead religious lives as adults.

The op has no choice, and has to hope that her children will be the exceptions to the rule. I hope things work out. Sometimes, with a lot of effort, they do.

amother

Floralwhite

Wed, Jan 06 2021, 3:17 am

#BestBubby wrote:

OP has a choice.

If there is a will there is a way.

OP is uncertain if making sacrifices for Yeshiva is worth it.

She's not willing to move somewhere where she can afford a Jewish education, she doesn't have support from her husband, and she's not totally convinced that day school makes a difference. So she thinks she doesn't have a choice. Others (including me) might disagree.

It sounds like she wanted to be reassured that things would work out if she sent to public school, and for the most part, we can't tell her that. I feel for her, but we can't force her to make huge sacrifices if she doesn't find them valuable and if we're not willing to pay the bills for her.

The fact is that she genuinely cannot afford day school in her current situation.

DrMom

Wed, Jan 06 2021, 4:06 am

amother [ Lime ] wrote:

I think the x-mas celebrations are not really a huge problem. That is something that can be dealt with on a point-wise, seasonal basis.

I think the larger issue = the values which contradict Torah that are passed on in a more subtle way throughout the entire schoolyear.

I think the tuition crisis in the US is a huge threat to Jewish continuity and must be addressed via a nationwide effort among the US Jewish community.

LovesHashem

Wed, Jan 06 2021, 4:09 am

DrMom wrote:

Didn't read the thread but this. Like your kid may be taught in lower grades it it's okay to have two moms or dads and you can change your gender if you'd like.