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Debt or Public School?
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amother




Burlywood
 

Post Wed, Jan 06 2021, 7:04 pm
OP, this was not your question, but you say you hope to have a large family, and your husband is OTD? I'm really sorry for your difficult situation, but how do you think that can work out well?
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amother




Mint
 

Post Wed, Jan 06 2021, 7:24 pm
Have you talked to the school? Never heard of anyone in your financial situation having to pay full tuition as you wrote 20,000 per child.
Hatzlocha
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amother




Mint
 

Post Wed, Jan 06 2021, 7:26 pm
We know many Israelis non religious who came sent to ps thinking it would be ok big Jewish population and all and were very regretful now that their kids are grown, some dating out and married out R”L
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emma07




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 06 2021, 8:49 pm
amother [ Mint ] wrote:
yes they do
they are starting "sx ed" earlier and earlier
think kindergarten

the tuition issue is huge and wish there was an easier answer
public school is not it

immorethanamother is right I know families with kids in ps and people who teach in ps and kids who came out of ps who are afraid to voice their views in school since "not pc enough" ie more traditional and by traditional I do not mean frum or even "conservative"

We know kids who went through a conservative day school education and then public ps and college and the results typically are not what you would want for your kids -- nice kids wonderful families I like them but not where I want my kids to be holding frumkeit wise not even close

and socially -- do you know what it means to cut your kids off socially from extracurriculars and almost everyone if not everyone they see every day in school socially? not let your kids "date" and "experiment" which generally starts very early in these circles
take a walk through a school, elementary , middle school, high school...make sure to check out the gym class too and lunchroom and recess, take a look at a year book for starters though that won't substitute for hearing what goes on in and out of the classrooms and on social media
if you think kids especially teens tend to understand let alone appreciate this um nope
its a real set up unfortunately
I am very sorry but you have really no clue what you are talking about.. that do not teach relations education in kindergarten and regarding the social life... I have said it before all there friends in public are Jewish and so is 80% of the students.yes if you send your kids to a public school where there are no Jewish kids around they would obviously not have any Jewish friends.. but we all know that the best public school in this country have a lot of Jewish students
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emma07




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 06 2021, 8:50 pm
amother [ Slategray ] wrote:
Emma, your kids seem to be young. Get back to us when they're in middle school.
Of course, if half the kids in their classes are from frum families, it could work. Otherwise, not really.
I have kids in middle school
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emma07




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 06 2021, 8:53 pm
avrahamama wrote:
It only works if the parents are extremely vigilant. Very very very vigilant. Talking to their children constantly. Finding out exactly what the teacher is teaching at any moment. What short story. What little cartoon. What snacks they're distributing. Is there a child of gay marriage in the class.

Did I tell you about the time in 1st grade that I went to Y camp and had a ham and cheese sandwich? My bunkmate traded her lunch with me. I had no clue. If my mom she would have been heartbroken.

You have to wake up every morning and drill your children.

s-xual exploration happens YOUNG for kids in secular world. Like barely middle school.

If you're going to do it have a plan for any eventuality. Wake up every morning and remind your child of the literal basics.

Also knowing "right from wrong" doesn't mean knowing the Torah application of how to live. A secular right from wrong is currently very different from Torah aligned values. So you can't say my kids know right and wrong. You have to be able to say my kids are growing in their application of Torah aligned values. Without environment it's hard to facilitate that.

So OP if you're planning on sticking to Public school. Be very very very vigilant. Have a plan for everything. Literally look at a school calendar and break down the school events and how your kids will participate. Look at the school and PTA newsletters to get a feel for what they're culturally going to open your kids to and be prepared for how you want to deal with it. Decide how you will handle playdates with classmates of different value systems.

Dont say "oh well this is my lot in life" and fall into it.

Say "this is what I think we have to do. But I can try my best to fortify my children"

And hatzlacha.

But really may you see a yeshua that will help you send your Jewish neshamot to a good yeshiva that will nourish their neshamot and be mechazek you a d your husband as well.
only Frum kids have values???? And btw in my kids school they have kosher lunch options and guess what they are not allowed to share or bring snacks to school in birthdays
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emma07




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 06 2021, 8:56 pm
amother [ Taupe ] wrote:
Some of the comments about public school here really make me laugh. Zex ed in kindergarten? Seriously? Are you trying to scare people or do you actually believe that?

FWIW, here's my experience from 5-6 years ago. I went to public school after being bullied in Jewish schools. A sibling who wanted a more academic experience (AP classes) followed me. And we both had very positive experience in our local public school - wonderful education, involved teachers, and a great group of friends. This wasn't any sort of top tier magnet public school, just a standard neighborhood public school. I wouldn't hesitate to send my kids there when the time comes.

There are many good reasons to choose Jewish education, but it's possible to point them out without fear-mongering and/or insulting other people's choices.
really ... I do not know where people get their info from
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amother




Linen
 

Post Wed, Jan 06 2021, 11:45 pm
In NYC public schools, the department of education has growing set of curriculum resources, designed to integrate LGBTQ+ history and narratives into US History and English classrooms. Other states probably have the same or will. Not sure what grades this is for but no children, Jewish or not, should be preached about this sick society illness .
Will your child in public school even know morality?
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avrahamama




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 06 2021, 11:49 pm
emma07 wrote:
only Frum kids have values???? And btw in my kids school they have kosher lunch options and guess what they are not allowed to share or bring snacks to school in birthdays


Broad secular values does not equal torah aligned values.

Yes I know all about the kosher options in public school. Like I said my niece goes. She had her kosher chicken nugget and washed it down with her kosher dairy chocolate milk.
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amother




Jetblack
 

Post Wed, Jan 06 2021, 11:54 pm
amother [ Linen ] wrote:
In NYC public schools, the department of education has growing set of curriculum resources, designed to integrate LGBTQ+ history and narratives into US History and English classrooms. Other states probably have the same or will. Not sure what grades this is for but no children, Jewish or not, should be preached about this sick society illness .
Will your child in public school even know morality?

Is this for all grades or upper ones? Also, can parents opt out?

When I was doing internships in a couple different elementary public schools, the teachers had to send home a permission slip if they were showing anything rated above a G rating. Also, the 5th grade only had a class on "changing bodies" that parents could choose to opt out of. That was the extent of s*x ed. I am sure in middle school it is a different story, though.
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mirror




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jan 07 2021, 12:24 am
naturalmom5 wrote:
He was very miserable there as well
So he went to Digital Harbor where he thrived ...
BH, today he is mid 20s and very sincerely committed to yiddishkeit
Unfortunately the majority of the boys he new in the Jewish HS who stayed there for the entire HS are OTD


Can I please ask, in your opinion and life experience why the boys went OTD? Because I noticed that with some schools, some classes will go OTD while other classes don't, and I was wondering if peer pressure was a factor?
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emma07




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jan 07 2021, 4:02 am
avrahamama wrote:
Broad secular values does not equal torah aligned values.

Yes I know all about the kosher options in public school. Like I said my niece goes. She had her kosher chicken nugget and washed it down with her kosher dairy chocolate milk.
oh please ... only kids who go to yeshiva have values.... how many frum people are doing god knows what behind their wife’s back
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avrahamama




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jan 07 2021, 8:29 am
emma07 wrote:
oh please ... only kids who go to yeshiva have values.... how many frum people are doing god knows what behind their wife’s back


Yes many people do many things.

Again. You keep using the word values. And I am telling you it's not about values. It's about TORAH values. Secular Jewish children are Jewish neshamot it doesn't mean they have TORAH values.

Can you accept the distinction?

Do people do aveirot? Yes. Are a childs chances of integrating TORAH values better when they are immersed in a torah centric environment? Yes.

My message to the OP is not to go broke or go home. My message is to go in with eyes wide open. Be vigilant and not just think that because the cafeteria tosses some kosher chicken nuggets in a microwave and gets kosher pizza from the local pizzeria that she's essentially sending to jewish day school but better. That just because a child goes into school wearing a kippah doesn't mean he knew to wash netillat yadayim in the morning. That's if OP is fortunate enough to live in the school district you describe. And I also live in.


We should all have nachat.
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emma07




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jan 08 2021, 7:17 am
avrahamama wrote:
Yes many people do many things.

Again. You keep using the word values. And I am telling you it's not about values. It's about TORAH values. Secular Jewish children are Jewish neshamot it doesn't mean they have TORAH values.

Can you accept the distinction?

Do people do aveirot? Yes. Are a childs chances of integrating TORAH values better when they are immersed in a torah centric environment? Yes.

My message to the OP is not to go broke or go home. My message is to go in with eyes wide open. Be vigilant and not just think that because the cafeteria tosses some kosher chicken nuggets in a microwave and gets kosher pizza from the local pizzeria that she's essentially sending to jewish day school but better. That just because a child goes into school wearing a kippah doesn't mean he knew to wash netillat yadayim in the morning. That's if OP is fortunate enough to live in the school district you describe. And I also live in.
Depends what you mean as Torah values.....

We should all have nachat.
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avrahamama




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jan 08 2021, 10:17 am
I'm going to try in the very little time and limited breadth of the internet to offer MY understanding of Torah values. And of course I cannot and most likely WILL NOT do it justice. Because its TORAH and requires immersion.

Torah Tziva Lanu Moshe

The Torah was given to us from Moshe who received it directly from Hashem. From there the chain goes down from leader/teacher to leader/teacher for all of Am Yisrael. This means that there is a chain of EDUCATION and PRACTICE. Now of course Shema bni Torah IMECHA means the mother has a responsibility to immerse their child in Torah from the begining. So knowing Torah values and appreciating them is important for our work as parents.

There is the written torah and the oral torah. Both of which we are required to immerse ourselves into both day and night. The ultimate goal of this TORAH immersion is to have a direct relationship with Hashem.

Our relationships in this world are broken down into 3 themes 1. Individual and Hashem 2. Individual and himself 3. Individual and his fellows. The Torah gives us a blueprint how to interact within these 3 relationships.

Sometimes what we think might be common sense of what Hashem wants from us or how to treat another person is actually not a Torah value but rather a secular value. Cultural relativism (a very popular secular belief system) asks people to understand morality as experienced through the lens of each individual culture. So for example: Eating a live animal. There are cultures that eat from a live animal. In the secular world we are told to think “oh well this is their culture we must understand and accept.” When in fact its against the commandments of Bnei Noach! Its not the right thing to do!

We experience the world through our 5 senses. And our Torah gives us the opportunity to understand and connect to Hashem through our five sense. From making a bracha on something we eat/see/smell to making sure that we do not open ourselves to hearing/seeing/speaking/thinking crude things. What Torah classifies as crude/immoral is not aligned with the secular idea of crudity. (I mean just this week a story came out about a cartoon whose HERO has a 20 foot long p-nis and only far right wing organizations are fighting such a cartoon, talk about grooming children early)

I need to stop now because its Erev Shabbat. But the cynicism that TORAH VALUES has been met with is disheartening to say the least and does not bode well going forward.

There are many issues within the Yeshiva system. I am not blind or naive to them. I am also not blind or naive to the genuine risks of secular immersion, particularly for people who already have such disdain for a frum community that isn’t perfect but is trying.
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amother




Dodgerblue
 

Post Fri, Jan 08 2021, 12:40 pm
avrahamama, thank you for your post. very informative and inspirational.
I think unfortunately, there are people who were hurt by the system, so this is their response.
Or it is just comes from ignorance, and they are really well-meaning.
if you love being religious, and you want your children to be religious, it makes sense to send my children to religious institutions.
the value system in america has gone way down. I see the public school kids on the streets- not to mention it's co-ed which I would never want for my kids.
I can't even imagine a boy growing up very religious and wanting to be religious and there are jewish/non-jewish girls in his class wearing jeans and befriending him. how does that work?
to me it just doesn't go together...
my husband ended up in a behavioral school that was not jewish, I don't think it did him any good, it was a last resort in a desperate situation because his father was not in the picture and his mother had zero clue how to handle him or what to do. he went OTD after that (he ended up coming back after high school, B'H- which is a miraculous story in it of itself!! Hashem completely guided him- but I don't think it's a good idea to rely on miracles)
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#BestBubby




 
 
 
 

Post Fri, Jan 08 2021, 2:07 pm
Mahy Gedolim say saving a child from public school is Pikuach Nefesh.

That is why people donate to Oorah and Nechomas Yisroel to SAVE these Jewish children
from public school shma'ad.
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amother




OP
 

Post Sun, Jan 10 2021, 11:20 am
imorethanamother wrote:
Emma07 said that they can afford yeshiva tuition, but she refuses to pay. The OP says that her husband doesn't care if they go to private school, and she doesn't see the point of paying so much money. Did the OP say that she tried to ask the yeshiva for a discount and they refused? No.

Sometimes it's a value system. And for some people on this site, Jewish education isn't worth the fight or the struggle. It's a choice. I don't agree with that choice, but they're allowed to make it.

This disproves your point that this thread is about people with no other choice.

I, personally, had no choice but to send to public school. And I come to this thread armed with real-world knowledge of what that's like in a supposedly religion-free, tolerant, blue state environment. And it's not great. My point is not to make anyone feel bad who's in a similar situation, but to bring reality to the discussion.


Actually the whole point was that my husband was fine with whatever I chose. However , it is not within our financial possible to send our kids without going into debt. And yes they do refuse . Even with help it still not sustainable. Edit.
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amother




OP
 

Post Sun, Jan 10 2021, 11:28 am
amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:
OP, this was not your question, but you say you hope to have a large family, and your husband is OTD? I'm really sorry for your difficult situation, but how do you think that can work out well?


I don’t know. But I daven everyday. I thank HaShem that I am allowed to raise as I do. That my DH loves me incredibly, loves kids, works hard for us and is faithful to his family for ever. I would never get a Get so. You work with it.
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amother




OP
 

Post Sun, Jan 10 2021, 11:36 am
Thank you everyone for your comments . I took a break from this thread and imamother in general. I found it very negative. I’m thankful for everyone’s insight. I do believe some may not hear me out fully. I feel my worries fall on tone ears. Or with people who disagree fully and never will . Andy that’s okay. If you would never send to public school - that’s your way of life. I’d kindly ask you stop replying. Or I shall start a spin off or find resources where imas or more amenable because otherwise a discussion would go nowhere. As I would love to send my children to day school. Unfortunately it looks like for now it’s not in the cards. And no- I will not but myself out of home for it. I will do the best I can . But the home is where the heart is , and my grandparents never had to do . If opportunities present them self I would gladly take.

I really appreciate everyone’s input from every side. I’d really like my children to get a well rounded decision. Both religious and secular.

Also, I’d like to remind everyone. You’re on the internet. So let not assume that your children can’t be. You never know what goes on behind doors.
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