Debt or Public School?

amother

Beige

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 9:32 am

Russian roulette. Stories of kids going off the derech coming from frum schools are anecdotal and I’m sure if you looked at the numbers side by side you’d see there’s nothing to compare.
Also, the sheer amount of Jewish knowledge that’s imparted can mean even the kids that do go off, have a very solid Identity and understanding and respect for Judaism.
I am always surprised by the people who post that they send to public school for financial reasons (I understand that some children have needs that can’t be met in a Jewish school- I’m talking about finances.)
My goal is one day I’ll have enough money to Bn sponsor a child’s education. For now I’m struggling with my own.

OOTforlife

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 9:55 am

elisheva25 wrote:

My advice to Op and anyone else in similar situation, make plans to move to an area where tuition isn’t 20K+ per a kid .
Places like that exist. 20k+ per a kid is a lot of $ whether you are divorced or not
You might not be able to move tomm, but I think ultimately that should be the goal .

If the $20K+ schools refuse to work out some kind of compromise, then I agree that relocation can make sense as a longer term solution.

Also, I got the impression from the $20-40K tuition range given that the schools in question are MO schools. If so, there might be more affordable options locally if OP is flexible on hashkafa. While I am MO and understand preferring a school in line with that hashkafa, I would rather send to another type of frum school than to public school if those were my only two options.

amother

Ecru

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 10:00 am

Pls do not send to public school. I see ur mind is pretty much made up. But know that many many non jews would never send to public school and ‘kill’ themselves working to afford their private schools bc public school has gone rlly down. I personally kno 2 Italian families (thru work) that will never ever send to public schools bc it has gone so down hill. I hope u make the right decision. And I hope u don’t regret the decision in 10-15 yrs from now.

amother

Smokey

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 11:42 am

Similar story to what was posted above. I know a BT whose immigrant parents were somewhat frum/traditional when they came to America.
They wanted to send their kids to Jewish schools but couldn't afford tuition and they didn't realize that they could have called their Rav for help or asked for a discount from the school so they just sent their kids to PS. All of their kids are not frum. One intermarried.
This girl became frum again in college but out of 5 kids, she is the only frum one.
PS is her parents biggest regret in life.

I remember a single mother who helped serve the hot lunch in my school. We thought it was so nice of her to volunteer but looking back she probably offered to do it for a tuition discount. Kol hakavod to her!

If you want your children to have a Jewish education, it IS possible to work it out.

Obviously nothing is guaranteed in life but not giving them a strong Jewish education is asking for an open miracle for them to remain frum. In your situation, where the odds are already stacked against you, you should do everything possible to keep your children connected to Judaism. Be strong and don't give up!

amother

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 11:51 am

amother [ Gold ] wrote:

I have one child in PS because of special needs. It is absolutely the best place for him to be. In PS he is able to be largely mainstreamed and in the local Jewish schools it would not be an option. The secular curriculum is very good, the teachers are excellent, and the children are well behaved. I am worried about high school but we will see where things are as time progresses.

It doesn't help to say things like "your child will never remain frum" or "will definitely intermarry" because it's provably false when you state it as an absolute. Scaring people into yeshiva is not the way. I know people are going to say "well we don't mean SN kids" but when you say it like that you're including them. Less likely is not the same as impossible and the thing about yeshiva is that it is also a proxy for heavy Jewish involvement and socialization, which are very important for marrying in.

It is certainly worth talking to the school. But the reality is that many schools cannot help to the extent needed. NYC does *not* have vouchers. New York has an extremely strong Blaine amendment which prohibits most forms of direct aid to religious schools. Homeschooling may be an option but only if you can make it work--and not everyone can. Oorah might help but I think they target kids who are already in PS.

Let's not kid ourselves--tuition is a real crisis.

It is a crisis. Where we lived before - basically if your child didn’t go to PS the “money” would be transferred to school of your choice and different would be paid. Day schools were just another public choice. It’s absolutely ridiculous in America to me at least.

amother

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 11:55 am

TwinsMommy wrote:

I grew up in public school and became frum.

My kids are growing up in public school and so proud to be frum and so blessed to be getting the education they're getting.

I have so much to say about the comparison between my daughter's public school and two of our Orthodox Jewish schools (at which my husband has worked so yes we know details) but I won't.

At the beginning we got "stuck" in public due to our children's special needs.

Now I CHOOSE public having seen both sides. I might choose differently if I lived elsewhere and had another option (fewer special needs)--- but--- my son got KICKED OUT of public school due to his behaviors and I CANNOT WAIT for him to be allowed back if ever (he's already in 8th grade--- got kicked out in 4th).

The assumption that all public schools are filled with crime, teen pregnancies, and frum kids going OTD is ridiculous.

Thank you for sharing your story. I did not grow up in public school and only 1 of my 9 siblings did (the youngest ) but it was an arts school so I can’t say what the culture is like. But I also have family that WORK in day schools as well and don’t send their children to Jewish schools and it really blows my mind how they bad talk talk them. wondering

amother

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 11:57 am

amother [ Smokey ] wrote:

Thanks for sharing. I think as long as see their mother honest about her love and teachings I can only hope for the best.

amother

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 11:58 am

amother [ Ecru ] wrote:

I think this takes away from all communities then. Why not fight for better public schools. All children deserve it. Not only the people who can afford it.

amother

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 12:00 pm

OOTforlife wrote:

Thank you for your advice. The range is from difference grades and hashkafa. My city is very expensive . I cannot move due to contract and visa issues for 5-7 years.

#BestBubby

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 12:05 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I think this takes away from all communities then. Why not fight for better public schools. All children deserve it. Not only the people who can afford it.

USA spends more on public schools than any government in the world.

Public schools are bad - ON PURPOSE.

Tyrants need a dumbed down indoctrinated population to stay in power.

Best way to fix public schools would be to give ALL parents VOUCHERS and parents can choose
whether to send their child to public school, private school or home-school.

THEN there would be competition and excellent education.

amother

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 12:05 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

It depends what's important to you in life. You're liking all the posts that say that "Hey, my kid is in public school and it's fine", and you're ignoring all the posts to the contrary. It sounds like your decision is already made. You like your life, you think schooling "won't matter in the long run,", and you don't want to "fuss over money".

My parents sacrificed a lot to pay our tuitions. It's what my mother davened for every day. To be able to pay the tuition. She said so, a lot, to us, how much it meant for her.

Today, one of my children is in public school, because he has autism. Severe autism. He has a full time shadow, also not Jewish. Despite specific and strict instructions about being on a kosher diet, despite having someone there with him at all times that also knows my specific instructions, he was fed Dominos pizza. He had instances where other kids would throw his kippah away. He learns about x-mas and Halloween and they have the class watch movies like, "Charlie Brown's x-mas", Avengers movies, and Star Wars.

And because he's autistic? My kid is the lucky one. My friends who have kids with Asperger's/ASD have watched Brokeback Mountain in class, were bullied for being Jewish (and so they no longer wear their kippah, and are not interested in being different), and eat the school lunch that is not kosher.

I would do anything to have my son in a Jewish private school. Anything. I'm a minority fighting against a majority culture in the classroom, and the majority wins. I find this whole conversation to be the saddest thing. I wish you luck, OP.

I don’t know what to tell you. These things happen in the world. They happen within Jewish schools as well. I don’t think it has to do with being a minority ...

amother

Brown

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 12:11 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Some public schools are bad.

There are a lot that are quite satisfactory or even very very good. They generally are quite good.

I know folks focus on NYC or other urban areas where there tend to be larger frum Jewish communities, and oftentimes, those public school systems have a lot of challenges that come with urban environments.

I don't disagree that school choice via vouchers would help drive all schools giving parents what they want and competition is good.

I think folks in power in the velt and l'havdil in Jewish communities include, but are not limited to, those who want to maintain power by maintaining indoctrination or limiting information and keeping the uneducated masses dependent and ignorant. That dynamic is not only a secular or religious thing either.

amother

Coffee

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 12:11 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I was to raise my children frum with strong Yiddishkeit but when I look at the tuition for orthodox day schools in my area which are I think : is it worth it? Debt I mean? I’m worried they won’t learn what they need because of me. My husband is OTD. I’m FFB , went otd and came back a few years ago Peace sign

. DH is fine raising them however I want. I couldn’t afford 1 year of preschool . How do others do it ? For multiple children no less . Would public school be so bad ? How could I give them a good Jewish education. - a very stuck and poor ima

Online shluchim school. Homeschool.

avrahamama

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 12:19 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I don’t know what to tell you. These things happen in the world. They happen within Jewish schools as well. I don’t think it has to do with being a minority ...

Ok so I went to Baiss Yaakov for Elementary School (they knew we weren't frum but accepted me anyway) and then one of the state's top public high schools and then to an excellent and we'll regarded public university.

My mother was very traditional (Friday night dinner and kosher meat only dress conservative if not modest) My stepdad was entirely secular.

By the time I was 18 in college I was eating matza with turkey and cheese on passover and my catholic roommate was the one to remind me that jews don't mix milk and meat lol.

I literally was so entrenched in the secular world of my high school (90% secular jews) that I forgot it all. Forgot everything I learned.

Because you need education and environment to maintain any sort of spiritual consistency.

I do think you're not being realistic about the risks. Do they happen in Jewish schools? Yes. With the same quickness, and frequency as in a public school setting? No.

Do you feel strong enough to take the risk? That's really up to you.

I remember reading a study that said a child needs jewish day school until the age of 9 if there is hope to keep a Jewish identity of any sort.

Yeshiva is $$$$$ I know. And I know that literally working yourself to the bone makes no sense. For what some deem to be an underwhelming education to say the least. I'm not buying into the school itself. I'm buying into the sviva for my children and a Torah education.

Also eating traif and brokeback mountain doesn't happen in Jewish schools as well. And a lot of things happen in the world. A lot of terrible terrible things does that mean we shrug off the possibility of it happening to our children? Or do we fight to the best of our ability ensure it doesn't?

amother

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 4:23 pm

avrahamama wrote:

Thank you for bringing up these points .

Do you believe your path ventured from your parents not being frum or from you going to public high school? What brought you to orthodoxy and how did you re-educate yourself?

amother

White

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 4:39 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I think this takes away from all communities then. Why not fight for better public schools. All children deserve it. Not only the people who can afford it.

Isn't that one of the reason some suburbs are afraid of having large percentage of Frum people since they would have no interest in keeping the schools good.

Public schools vary greatly - even within metropolitan areas there are magnet schools and schools in certain neighborhoods and typically those neighborhoods have high property value because of the quality of the public schools. I have friends who sent to the local public elementary school which provided as good an education as one could get anywhere - and their kids then went to various magnet high schools.

Many people move to suburbs with high quality public schools and are willing to pay the high property taxes to support the public school system. It is still less expensive than sending kids to private schools. Scarsdale has public schools that rival the best quality private schools for example and there are other suburbs that are equally known for their excellent school system with parents who are very invested and dedicate a lot of energy to them.

amother

Jetblack

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 4:58 pm

The problem with kids in public schools is peer pressure.
Kids naturally want to fit in with their peers.
It's not really fair at your kids to put them in a certain environment and then expect them to maintain certain religious standards so they will still fit into a mainstream frum society.

That said, there are very good public schools out there. It's the inner city ones that are bad. Because most frum communities and neighborhoods are in large urban areas, that's what most frum people visualize when they think of public schools. But the majority are decent to very good or even excellent. It has a lot to do with the student population, parents, and socio economic background of the kids.

lk1234

Tue, Jan 05 2021, 5:11 pm

avrahamama wrote:

I want you to know that this is a beautiful post in the sense that I never heard this perspective before. I'm in the working like a dog to pay tuition phase and am constantly doubting why it's all worth it. Thank you for this perspective.