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Do you feel differently when you’re around men than women?
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amother




Burgundy
 

Post Thu, Jan 07 2021, 1:25 pm
I work with some secular men and I do find I act more distant. I'm polite but not friendly. Where as I'm definitely more chatty to the women and share more about my personal life.

My husband appreciates it and I feel like it's good to have boundaries.

We may all have different opinions as to where those boundaries should start but we should all be acting differently to some of he men in our life than we would had they been women.
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amother




Burlywood
 

Post Thu, Jan 07 2021, 1:25 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:
But you feel comfortable around not frum and non jewish men? Care to explain?


There's a certain constraint around frum men because we know that they prefer to have as little as possible to do with women, and when we do have to interact with them we're sort of outlanders or interlopers, iow somewhere where we don't belong (in their opinion). Especially when dealing with men who very obviously avoid looking at you and absolutely will not look you in the eye, this is very discombobulating for a woman who sees herself as equal and is used to being treated more or less as an equal. Most nonfrum and nonjewish men that we deal with don't have that "woman is a tool of the Devil" attitude and they don't see us as "the other." They relate to us for the most part as regular people.

Of course there are exceptions: I challenge any woman not to feel uncomfortable walking in a men's prison (Women's prisons are pretty scary places, so just imagine...), and then there are the creepy dudes who consider all females s@xually available fair game, the male supremacist pigs who see all women as intellectually inferior, and so on. It's entirely possible, maybe even probable, that at least some of the men we consider reasonable and trustworthy make disparaging and lewd remarks about us when we're out of earshot, and see to it that we are passed up for promotions. But as a rule, we don't get the feeling that the secular men we encounter are looking at us and considering that we are somehow besmirched because we've attended college and work in a secular environment rather than teaching in Bais Yaakov or selling sheitels.
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amother




Pink
 

Post Thu, Jan 07 2021, 1:29 pm
amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:
There's a certain constraint around frum men because we know that they prefer to have as little as possible to do with women, and when we do have to interact with them we're sort of outlanders or interlopers, iow somewhere where we don't belong (in their opinion). Especially when dealing with men who very obviously avoid looking at you and absolutely will not look you in the eye, this is very discombobulating for a woman who sees herself as equal and is used to being treated more or less as an equal. Most nonfrum and nonjewish men that we deal with don't have that "woman is a tool of the Devil" attitude and they don't see us as "the other." They relate to us for the most part as regular people.

Of course there are exceptions: I challenge any woman not to feel uncomfortable walking in a men's prison (Women's prisons are pretty scary places, so just imagine...), and then there are the creepy dudes who consider all females s@xually available fair game, the male supremacist pigs who see all women as intellectually inferior, and so on. It's entirely possible, maybe even probable, that at least some of the men we consider reasonable and trustworthy make disparaging and lewd remarks about us when we're out of earshot, and see to it that we are passed up for promotions. But as a rule, we don't get the feeling that the secular men we encounter are looking at us and considering that we are somehow besmirched because we've attended college and work in a secular environment rather than teaching in Bais Yaakov or selling sheitels.


This. My husband claims that most of these non-Jewish men ARE making disparaging and lewd remarks behind our backs, but I told him, at least I don't hear it. I know, I'm an outlier in my world that this bothers me.
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amother




Chartreuse
 

Post Thu, Jan 07 2021, 1:36 pm
tweety1 wrote:
Of course I do. It's sort of comes subconsciously.


It is not subconscious. It is a taught behavior in our community.
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amother




Chocolate
 

Post Thu, Jan 07 2021, 1:38 pm
There seems to be a lot of hatred of men here...why? I don't feel disrespected by the men I work with or live near. I live in Lakewood, yeshivish.
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zaq




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jan 07 2021, 1:57 pm
amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:
There seems to be a lot of hatred of men here...why? I don't feel disrespected by the men I work with or live near. I live in Lakewood, yeshivish.


Where do you see hatred here? "Discomfort" and "distrust" don't equal "hatred."
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Crookshanks




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jan 07 2021, 2:02 pm
amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:
There's a certain constraint around frum men because we know that they prefer to have as little as possible to do with women, and when we do have to interact with them we're sort of outlanders or interlopers, iow somewhere where we don't belong (in their opinion). Especially when dealing with men who very obviously avoid looking at you and absolutely will not look you in the eye, this is very discombobulating for a woman who sees herself as equal and is used to being treated more or less as an equal. Most nonfrum and nonjewish men that we deal with don't have that "woman is a tool of the Devil" attitude and they don't see us as "the other." They relate to us for the most part as regular people.

This quote seemed a bit intense for me. Again, I work with men too and there is distance between us, but I don't feel I'm being treated as less than, or looked at as a "tool of the devil."
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FranticFrummie




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jan 07 2021, 2:03 pm
I feel much more relaxed, and like myself when I'm around women. I am naturally a very open, friendly type of person. I like to joke, laugh a lot, and smile a lot.

Unfortunately, men seem to think that means that I'm "into them", and they decide that I'm encouraging something zexual. Confused

Now, gay men, on the other hand, are just like women friends. There's no inhibition in being friendly with them, because the energy is completely different. There's no "tension" or "vibes" going on. We just act like normal people.
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Learning




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jan 07 2021, 2:05 pm
Obviously. Men and women are just different and there is the attraction issue
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LovesHashem




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jan 07 2021, 2:29 pm
I agree that if the man is uncomfortable you definitely feel it and it makes ME uncomfortable.

Growing up in the U.S. my friends father used to ask how I was and talk to me more than the fathers of my friends when I moved to Israel whom would more or less ignore me.

I see no issue talking with men for a few minutes although most of the people I do this with are people who are much older than me. I think id feel strange talking to men my own age.
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amother




Burlywood
 

Post Thu, Jan 07 2021, 3:08 pm
Crookshanks wrote:
This quote seemed a bit intense for me. Again, I work with men too and there is distance between us, but I don't feel I'm being treated as less than, or looked at as a "tool of the devil."


Frum men or non?
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amother




Chocolate
 

Post Thu, Jan 07 2021, 3:11 pm
Frum men. I work in Lakewood Very Happy
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zaq




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jan 07 2021, 3:14 pm
LovesHashem wrote:
I agree that if the man is uncomfortable you definitely feel it
.


This. And that's why some of us are so uncomfortable talking to frum men and not to nonfrum men. Nonfrum men are used to interacting with women; we are not an alien species to be viewed with distrust at best, fear and horror at worst. IME few RW frum men who grew up with strict gender separation can interact with women in a natural manner.
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Zehava




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jan 07 2021, 3:16 pm
Really depends on the man. Usually I either don’t interact at all or am completely comfortable. But there are exceptions.
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Raw




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jan 07 2021, 3:19 pm
Interesting question. I’ve always felt more comfortable to be me around men for some reason, while with women (who aren’t close friends/family), there’s often a subconscious effort to please and show them I’m nice.
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amother




Brown
 

Post Thu, Jan 07 2021, 3:23 pm
I feel comfortable around MO and secular men. They talk to me like an actual human being (except the creepy men).
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amother




Papaya
 

Post Thu, Jan 07 2021, 3:28 pm
zaq wrote:
This. And that's why some of us are so uncomfortable talking to frum men and not to nonfrum men. Nonfrum men are used to interacting with women; we are not an alien species to be viewed with distrust at best, fear and horror at worst. IME few RW frum men who grew up with strict gender separation can interact with women in a natural manner.


In no community are women viewed like this.
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Chickensoupprof




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jan 07 2021, 3:46 pm
Well... Women especially in HS were vile to me and I never understood their behaviour and I was really a social outcast but since I'm frum I'm more in the middle. I made peace I'm not the typical girl and that I'm weird and bla bla bla, however women always have hidden ''codes'' were men are way more honest and upright. Some frum men weird me out but some are so sweet!

Oh remembers me of something... as I said usually I feel more comfortable around men... When I got engaged I was in Antwerp and my husband was davening in the big Belzer shul there... I got a sandwich for both of us and went to the Shul because I wanted to pick him up, I forgot that men read the torah on Thursdays... So I stood by the shul and was like ''3 minutes till my chosson shows up'' but no... So after 10 minutes a chossid came to me asked what I was doing I said ''I'm so sorry... my chosson the only modernishe guy out there is davening and I just forgot he will daven later'' 'Oh! He has a green jumper?' ''yeah, come sit here inside in the shul'' and the chassid made me a chair in the shul hall ''make yourself comfortable I tell your chussen you are here, it's not nice to stand outside in this cold'. And I felt soooooo weird because there was I a ripe young kallah sitting in the shul and men saw me and didn't understand and thought it was weird?'
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