S/o feel more comfortable around men

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Forum -> Relationships -> Manners & Etiquette

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Zehava

Thu, Jan 07 2021, 3:11 pm

I don’t know, I find men to annoyingly veer towards locker room talk, or equally annoying macho bragging.
And sure there are plenty women who can only talk about clothes but I steer clear of these.

amother

Jetblack

Thu, Jan 07 2021, 4:10 pm

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

I am not "traditionally feminine" etc. etc. and I have always been able to find both male and female friends with whom to enjoy intellectual conversation, jokes, and debate. Maybe in the most sheltered communities there are dynamics I don't understand which affect men and women differently in terms of their ability to be exposed to ideas and develop intellectually.

But, and this is where I will sound like a huge jerk, most men and women are not really saying anything that interesting intellectually at any given conversation. Even many of those who are capable, either aren't bothering or aren't comfortable. And many of those who want to debate or talk about "intellectual" topics actually are not really capable. They're not well informed, have poor reasoning skills that make it impossible to have a worthwhile exchange, or are too emotional about their subject for a productive debate. So if someone regularly finds male conversations to be intellectually fascinating and never finds any women to be intellectually interesting, they're either surrounded by a very unusually selective crowd or there is something else going on.

That is the issue.
Women get emotionally invested when debating. I have have found very few women who I can talk to.
I don’t think something has to be going on.
There are different kinds of people on this planet, and not every type of personality is common.
That doesn’t make it weird.

amother

Pumpkin

Thu, Jan 07 2021, 4:20 pm

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

Men also get emotionally invested. Furthermore, emotional investment is only one of several obstacles to a high-quality intellectual conversation.

To be clear, by "something else," I am not implying anything s_xual or romantic at all. Just that there are other biases and dynamics in play that are clouding the person's perception of the men and women they're encountering.

amother

Chocolate

Thu, Jan 07 2021, 4:22 pm

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

This. I have not found men to be less emotional debaters in the least. (I also don't think there is anything wrong with emotion entering a debate, as long as it doesn't cloud your reason).

amother

Chocolate

Thu, Jan 07 2021, 4:24 pm

Zehava wrote:

I don’t know, I find men to annoyingly veer towards locker room talk, or equally annoying macho bragging.
And sure there are plenty women who can only talk about clothes but I steer clear of these.

Yes, this.

There are plenty of women who chat about shallow topics but there are no fewer men who do the same thing, just that their shallow talk is about different topics.

amother

Blush

Thu, Jan 07 2021, 4:45 pm

While I enjoy chatting with either men or women, I am respectful to other women and wouldn't start chatting away with someone's husband like that because I wouldn't want to provoke any bad feelings.

I don't think it's nice for a person to exclude the wife and only talk to the husband for example. If you want to talk to men, you have your husband, brothers, father, sons...

amother

Crimson

Thu, Jan 07 2021, 4:58 pm

I have a family member who loves chatting to men. Maybe she thinks they show that type of 'interest' in her even if they chat about the most random things.
I find it so off putting.

The world is made out of men and women. There are plenty men who talk such garbage all the time. And then you have women who will talk the same way too. Youv'e got to find your type within your gender.

So much generalisation in this thread.
So to reiterate:

All types exist in both genders.

amother

Crimson

Thu, Jan 07 2021, 5:03 pm

amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:

When I was more or less newly married and childless, I went to gatherings with other young couples. The men were friends of my dh but I didn't know their wives too well or at all. All the women wanted to talk about was strollers and diapers, which at that time were of no interest to me . So why wouldn't I want to stand beside my dh and listen to his conversation with his pals? Even if the conversation was boring, at least I was with dh, not feeling like a fish out of water among a bunch of new moms whom I didn't know and would likely never see again, discussing something that had no relevance to my life.

I imagine the hostess thought I was making eyes at her dh because she "invited" me, very politely but with a distinct edge to her voice, to join the women in the side room where they were gathered, away from the men.

It is socially off to do what you did. You aren't a baby, you should be able to stick it out with women chatting about something disinteresting to you.

I have a friend who does this to her husband all the time. Always part of the men's discussion. Never lets her husband be part of the boys. Will always tag along.

I even once saw her husband meet his business partner. She put herself right in between the two men and stood there like a shomer.

I think it's unfair to do this to a husband, let him enjoy his circle of friends without having a tale. Imagine him doing this to you, always being part of the women's conversations, it will never fly !

amother

Coral

Thu, Jan 07 2021, 5:13 pm

I find the men doing most of the Divrei Torah, so I join in bec. I appreciate it. Otherwise I find with woman I can "make friends" with men, I can have a conversation on a topic. That is the difference. I won't tell a man my troubles or triumphs. If we are having a conversation it's either in service of (they are servicing me or I am servicing them), it's a round table conversation on a topic or polite conversation (how are you, how is your mother, I love your house etc...) When I admire a man's house it's "I really like this collection of yours" when I admire a woman's house it's "this house has such a homey feel. I love the spaciousness etc.." Unless it's my brother Smile

amother

Jetblack

Thu, Jan 07 2021, 5:21 pm

amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:

This. I have not found men to be less emotional debaters in the least. (I also don't think there is anything wrong with emotion entering a debate, as long as it doesn't cloud your reason).

I have found men to be more logical and on the same page. It is what it is.
I am not going to scour the universe for like minded women, and if I find it interesting to talk to the men in my life it will have to do.

amother

Chocolate

Thu, Jan 07 2021, 5:29 pm

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

I couldn't care less, speak to whoever you want. I come from mixed circles and it's no big deal in my eyes if someone prefers to converse with men.
A story like the one above - a woman who stayed near her husband and snubbed the ladies gathered in the other room - would not happen to me, because we don't separate by gender when we meet.

In my circles, though, I have not noticed that men are better debaters or less emotional debaters. I enjoy a good debate myself, but it doesn't make a difference to me if I am debating with a man or woman.

amother

Seashell

Thu, Jan 07 2021, 7:56 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

For some reason, I enjoy having conversations with men more than women. Not inappropriate topics or things like that, just general shmoozing. I find them more relaxed and easy to talk to. I’m more of an introvert but I find that I can come out more in discussions with men versus women.
I wish I could change that, it’s not acceptable in my circles.
Anyone else like this? What can I do?

Yes, same. I find a lot of women to be catty, get jealous and other stuff. I like men better.

amother

Apricot

Thu, Jan 07 2021, 8:17 pm

OP, do you feel inferior to other women ? It could be that you are insecure around other women and feel competitive around them and with men there is no competition .
I know someone who has low self esteem and not many friends and she says she likes talking to men more than women and I think it’s because of her insecurity .

amother

Periwinkle

Thu, Jan 07 2021, 8:19 pm

What always makes me laugh is how so many women find most women catty, shallow, judgemental...it should be easy to find like-minded woman then!
Here's what I think happens: A is introduced to B, C, D in a small talk social setting (kiddush, simcha...). B, C,D find an easy, common ground subject to talk about-kids, shopping... A is bored out of her mind. Basically, women's small talk will steer to things that most women at their stage have in common. Mens' small talk might faster steer to politics (government and local/personal level).
If you want to up the conversation, bring it to a deeper/different level, past the small talk. These women probably have plenty of things to talk about if you introduce a different conversation. It's just hard to talk about the weather politely for 40 minutes.

naturalmom5

Thu, Jan 07 2021, 8:20 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

ITA

It’s really torture for an intellectual BT
I always say if Flatbush in the 80s was half as intense and stifling as my current reality I would of never of become frum
In my building and my block and my job, all the veiber talk about children and housework and cooking and shopping
After ten minutes , I’m like please shoot me
Whereas the men talk about politics economics Torah etc...

My husband though has it much worse
Virtually all men, except the most extreme Chasidish or Yeshivish are polite to me
Especially if they are 20 years younger.
Whereas, my husband finds most frum women to be acting weird or neurotic
If one says good Shabbos or good morning , he is sure she is BT or from extreme OOT ( Timbuktu)

It got to the point that he has a whole stikl Torah I don’t agree with
He will go to the library or stores without a yarmulke
He told if R Moshe has a tshuva allowing someone to not wear his cippa to get a job,
Then for sure it is ok to prevent someone from hurting your feelings
The Reishis Chochma says that embarrassing a yeed or hurting their feelings is Nofal B Gehennom ( free fall one way), as opposed to most aveiros are yored l gehennom, step by step for a short time

meiravit

Fri, Jan 08 2021, 12:29 am

zaq wrote:

So, do we assume you consult only male doctors, lawyers, shadchanim and accountants? I forgive you if you're over 80 years old or grew up in a Moslem country, but if you're a young woman you ought to be ashamed of yourself. You're doing all of femalekind an injustice and yourself a disservice. Gender does not determine a speaker's worthiness.

Ooh, this comment has a nasty feel. It makes it sound like you're a radical feminist who thinks all women have to do things a certain way, which to me is the exact opposite of feminism.

Her choosing male over female speakers doesn't say anything about their worthiness. She is allowed to prefer male over female speakers because she enjoys them more, or because she relates to them more, period. She doesn't have to worry about the rest of femalekind while she is searching for an online shiur.

amother

Aquamarine

Fri, Jan 08 2021, 12:36 am

meiravit wrote:

Isn't it odd to assume that all female speakers have the same style?

I will say that I avoid shiurim designed for women only, except for a few MO speakers. I'm interested in Torah, not in fluffy inspiration or in figuring out why the parsha is all about me.

amother

Chocolate

Fri, Jan 08 2021, 1:08 am

I think this problem may be worse in certain segregated circles.
I don't find women around me tend to talk about shopping ever. Cooking - only if both parnters in the discussion are interested (and actually many of the men in my circles are into cooking and enjoy these conversations even more than some women).

Child rearing- I don't consider it a shallow topic, but nor do I notice women talk about it obsessively. Maybe because my kids are older.

In any case, I really don't see most women as obsessed with shopping and cooking topics, far from it. Maybe in segregated communities this happens?

amother

Peach

Fri, Jan 08 2021, 2:28 am

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

Isn’t really dangerous anonymously on public forums.
We are raised that talking to men automatically leads to problems. That is not true. Ever heard of being friend zoned? Just friends is a real thing.

This argument doesn't work. The very concept of being friend-zoned indicates that one of the party does not want to "just be friends" but wants more than that.

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