Jewish History pre WWII

Genius

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 11:34 am

“Very few women in Lithuania covered their hair in the first half of the 20th century, and you can't get much more frum than that community was.”

Quoting from a locked thread.
I’m wondering about the accuracy of this statement.
We tend to look at prewar Europe with a nostalgia as if Jews were at their best in that period.
I don’t know about Lithuania, but Poland, Germany and Hungary were losing large chunks of their Jews to assimilation before the war. The communities I’m talking about were in fact not very frum at all.
I’m wondering about Lithuania. Were they as frum as the above poster is trying to make them out to be?

LovesHashem

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 11:48 am

In our BY we learned history of these time periods and learned about what is was like to live during those times and the issues with assimilation, chassidut oushback, and more.

Many people have said the holocaust is what actually saved the Jewish people from assimilating.

BadTichelDay

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 11:49 am

Genius wrote:

The fact that very few women covered might be evidence that you can, in fact, be much frummer than they were.
I have a feeling that the “you can’t be much frummer than they were” sentiment is based on very little proof.

In order to compare, one would need first a working definition of what exactly constitutes "frum".
A check list of mitzvot and behaviors that makes it possible to compare the past and the present and communities in different countries.

Genius

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 11:54 am

LovesHashem wrote:

That’s what I learned too. I sometimes see older people talking about religion in the alte heim as if that time period was the pinnacle of clarity and devotion.
I don’t think that was accurate

LovesHashem

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 11:57 am

Genius wrote:

That’s what I learned too. I sometimes see older people talking about religion in the alte heim as if that time period was the pinnacle of clarity and devotion.
I don’t think that was accurate

Yup. I did spend most of history class spacing out. Most high school classes to be honest, as the Hebrew and my lack of caring made me so not interested. But we had an amazing teacher who literally made history come alive. Whenever I tuned in and really focused she explained history like is was happening today so we could relate. It was so cool.

Genius

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 11:58 am

BadTichelDay wrote:

The rate of assimilation and intermarriage was very high. Don’t think we need a checklist for that.
Regarding hair covering, I’m pointing out that there was definitely room for growth so you CAN get much frummer than that (I don’t think anyone would argue that not covering is frummer. Some people do, others don’t but covering is definitely the frummer option)

newcomer

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 12:00 pm

I read his books & listened to his tapes years ago, but Rabbi Berel Wein would be a pretty good source to learn more about Jewish communities levels of religiosity without bias. That is, he doesn't have an agenda-- he writes (and speaks) as truthfully as he can.
It's hard to compare levels for places at different eras in history. But, from what I recall based on his lectures and writings, at that specific time in history it probably was one of the most frum Jewish communities, with the yeshiva movement, way of life, and religious education.
Of course there was assimilation but that existed in every single part of Europe at that time, with no exception, even down to the tiniest shtetl.

tigerwife

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 12:03 pm

Sara Shenirer created the BY movement in pre-war Europe because assimilation was rising at an alarming rate. Many frum yidden were extremely poor and if they could afford any education for their children, they tried to hire a rebbe for their sons. This is the age of the “Isms”. Frum Jewry was bleeding out, including Lithuania. A statement such as the one you quoted above is meaningless out of context.

leah233

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 12:05 pm

Genius wrote:

That’s what I learned too. I sometimes see older people talking about religion in the alte heim as if that time period was the pinnacle of clarity and devotion.
I don’t think that was accurate

Hard to argue with people who unlike me and you were actually in the alte heim.

Having done actual research on this topic I think both those who claim everyone was frum and those who claim everyone was rapidly going OTD are exaggerating badly.

To put things in perspective. Rabbi Berel Wein writes that there were thirty six large Orthodox shuls in his Chicago neighborhood in the early 1940s. A mere ten years later only twelve were still open and the majority of those twelve were no longer Orthodox. Even factoring in that some of the shuls closed because of changing Chicago demographics I still don't believe the European assimilation was so bad.

Genius

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 12:05 pm

tigerwife wrote:

What do you mean by meaningless out of context?

Genius

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 12:08 pm

leah233 wrote:

One doesn’t cancel the other out.
I’m trying to point out that the belief that everything was great and dandy at that point in time is faulty (America was well known for its assimilation, Europe not so much, apparently)

tigerwife

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 12:13 pm

Genius wrote:

What do you mean by meaningless out of context?

Because we don’t know that it was in fact the very frum women who didn’t cover their hair. We know there were frum women and assimilating women. We know that many women didn’t cover their hair. But we cannot conclude that this means even very frum women didn’t cover their hair. And I am not saying that the average frum woman didn’t cover or did cover her hair, only that the quote is logically faulted.

chanchy123

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 12:13 pm

Genius wrote:

My great great grandmother from Lithuania certainly covered her hair with a horse hair wig (left Europe for the US in the late 19th century), she was very very frum, her daughter, my great grandmother who was frum but modern - educated and independent (born in the US at the turn of the century or there about) did not cover her hair, only one of her sisters covered her hair and she was married to a big rav in their US city, she too covered with a hard only outside the house and showed some hair.
ETA
Why would you equate not covering hair with assimilation? Many frum women did not cover and many traditional committed women who were not completely shomer mitzvot but certainly were not assimilated didn’t cover their hair.

Last edited by chanchy123 on Sun, Jan 10 2021, 12:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

Genius

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 12:14 pm

tigerwife wrote:

This is my point.

newcomer

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 12:18 pm

leah233 wrote:

First of all, that's already a generation later. In Europe, you are talking pre holocaust, so 1930s and earlier.
Also, in America people left orthodox shuls to go to conservative or reform. In Europe (outside of Germany) the concept didn't really exist. Most young people who "left" became socialists or involved in those kind of causes, or just dropped stuff.. They might still attend an Orthodox shul if they were going to please their parents. But there were no conservative shuls taking away members.
Another really good book to read to learn more is "Gutka" by Guta Sternbuch, who described what it was like in Poland.

Genius

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 1:05 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

I’m not. I quoted from a covering hair thread that was locked. I’m challenging the statement/sentiment that jews has were the frummest you could get at that point in history.