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Forum
-> Judaism
ChassidishMommy
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Sun, Jan 10 2021, 9:03 am
This was bothering me on the other thread, which is locked by now, so I opened a new one instead.
As a native Yiddish speaker and reader, I can assure you that frum does not mean orthodox. Orthodox in Yiddish, as in all languages with Latin origins, is just the same: ארטאדאקס.
A different way of referring to the term when speaking/writing Yiddish, is in the Hebrew שומר תורה ומצוות.
Frum stems from the German fromm, which is defined as pious. And indeed, among Yiddish speakers, this is the way the word is used.
I recall several very Chassidish friends proudly saying they aren't frum. What they meant was that they aren't into the whole "piety thing". I even remember one neighbor's grandfather used to bentch them they should be "ehrlich but not frum". In other words, they should follow the letter of the law, but stay away from being zealous.
It's possible that in different communities, the word came to take on a different meaning. And that's OK. But please don't shove your meaning down our Yiddish speaking throats, and please don't take it personally when we use our own - and in fact, the correct - meaning.
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amother
Teal
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Sun, Jan 10 2021, 9:08 am
My great grandfather used to say "frum is Krum. a galach is frum, a yid is Ehrlich"
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amother
Rose
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Sun, Jan 10 2021, 9:10 am
There’s an old poster in German that says that married bliss is having a “frum” wife. Means obedient in that case.
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amother
Silver
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Sun, Jan 10 2021, 9:11 am
Agree - but its taken on a whole new meaning, especially in a crowd that doesn't speak Yiddish, and speaks English.
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shabbatiscoming
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Sun, Jan 10 2021, 9:12 am
ChassidishMommy wrote: | This was bothering me on the other thread, which is locked by now, so I opened a new one instead.
As a native Yiddish speaker and reader, I can assure you that frum does not mean orthodox. Orthodox in Yiddish, as in all languages with Latin origins, is just the same: ארטאדאקס.
A different way of referring to the term when speaking/writing Yiddish, is in the Hebrew שומר תורה ומצוות.
Frum stems from the German fromm, which is defined as pious. And indeed, among Yiddish speakers, this is the way the word is used.
I recall several very Chassidish friends proudly saying they aren't frum. What they meant was that they aren't into the whole "piety thing". I even remember one neighbor's grandfather used to bentch them they should be "ehrlich but not frum". In other words, they should follow the letter of the law, but stay away from being zealous.
It's possible that in different communities, the word came to take on a different meaning. And that's OK. But please don't shove your meaning down our Yiddish speaking throats, and please don't take it personally when we use our own - and in fact, the correct - meaning. | This is all fine and dandy except when someone says that they have been called and calling everyone they know that is orthodox, frum, included by people who speak yiddish, why cant that be good enough?
Also, people who were saying that someone who does not do xyz are not frum, to the other side, who know frum as meaning orthodox, does that not smack of beyond insulting??????
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behappy2
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Sun, Jan 10 2021, 9:20 am
Maybe it means different things to different ppl.
To me frum means anyone that sets out to abide by Torah completely even if they don't do it perfectly. If someone does an averia, but not out of an attempt to throw off the yoke off Torah I still consider them frum.
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ChassidishMommy
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Sun, Jan 10 2021, 9:23 am
shabbatiscoming wrote: | This is all fine and dandy except when someone says that they have been called and calling everyone they know that is orthodox, frum, included by people who speak yiddish, why cant that be good enough?
Also, people who were saying that someone who does not do xyz are not frum, to the other side, who know frum as meaning orthodox, does that not smack of beyond insulting?????? |
I totally get that. I personally wouldn't argue with someone who claims that they are frum, whatever their reason for doing so.
I just wanted to point out that this could be nothing more than a misunderstanding due to differences in dialect. This might make the comment less insulting. It may also help you and others make yourself clear as to where you're coming from when you find it insulting. "Please don't call me not frum; in my community anyone orthodox is frum" will probably go over better than maintaining that the correct translation of orthodox is frum.
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ChassidishMommy
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Sun, Jan 10 2021, 9:26 am
amother [ Silver ] wrote: | Agree - but its taken on a whole new meaning, especially in a crowd that doesn't speak Yiddish, and speaks English. |
Like I mentioned in OP, I get that words take on different meanings in different communities. But I believe it's unfair to expect other people to follow your changing of the meaning, except maybe if you politely point out to them that you find it offensive.
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amother
Silver
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Sun, Jan 10 2021, 9:38 am
ChassidishMommy wrote: | Like I mentioned in OP, I get that words take on different meanings in different communities. But I believe it's unfair to expect other people to follow your changing of the meaning, except maybe if you politely point out to them that you find it offensive. |
I'm with you (and have now read through a few other threads so better understand the context of this conversation).
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amother
Saddlebrown
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Sun, Jan 10 2021, 10:00 am
For Yiddish speakers it means frum as in religious.
Some context it means extreme but not necessarily sincere.
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Frumme
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Sun, Jan 10 2021, 10:23 am
A word can have multiple definitions. If there is a less mainstream way that a word is used, don't be surprised if people misunderstand you. A perfect example of this is the word "high." In the religious world, for whatever reason, high means drunk. For the rest of the world, it means to be under the influence of drugs.
It happens to be that "frum" is synonymous with Torah observant for the majority of people. It can't be expected that everyone will know that it might be derogatory in your community to use that word.
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amother
Silver
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Sun, Jan 10 2021, 10:31 am
Frumme wrote: | A word can have multiple definitions. If there is a less mainstream way that a word is used, don't be surprised if people misunderstand you. A perfect example of this is the word "high." In the religious world, for whatever reason, high means drunk. For the rest of the world, it means to be under the influence of drugs.
It happens to be that "frum" is synonymous with Torah observant for the majority of people. It can't be expected that everyone will know that it might be derogatory in your community to use that word. |
I think there is a newish English word "frum" that means something different than the Yiddish word.
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amother
Pewter
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Sun, Jan 10 2021, 10:39 am
what is this is a spinoff of?
To me, frum means shomer torah umitzvos. I've never heard any other meaning for it.
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number
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Sun, Jan 10 2021, 10:51 am
I don’t understand why you get to decide the true meaning of the word frum? Words take on new meaning over time. That doesn’t mean the new meaning is wrong. If you persist in using it in a manner that’s easily misunderstood then people will become offended. That doesn’t mean they’re ignorant, it means you are.
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shabbatiscoming
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Sun, Jan 10 2021, 12:46 pm
ChassidishMommy wrote: | I totally get that. I personally wouldn't argue with someone who claims that they are frum, whatever their reason for doing so.
I just wanted to point out that this could be nothing more than a misunderstanding due to differences in dialect. This might make the comment less insulting. It may also help you and others make yourself clear as to where you're coming from when you find it insulting. "Please don't call me not frum; in my community anyone orthodox is frum" will probably go over better than maintaining that the correct translation of orthodox is frum. | Every time this comes up on this site, the posters who grew up where orthodox meant frum meant observant say so, but some posters just dont want to hear it and get very rude, but thats for another time or another post.
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FranticFrummie
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Sun, Jan 10 2021, 12:55 pm
Native Yiddish speakers are a minority on this site. Most people here barely know 3 words of Yiddish, and two of them are "oy" and "vey".
Why should we change the word usage that the vast majority of the board uses?
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Genius
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Sun, Jan 10 2021, 12:58 pm
FranticFrummie wrote: | Native Yiddish speakers are a minority on this site. Most people here barely know 3 words of Yiddish, and two of them are "oy" and "vey".
Why should we change the word usage that the vast majority of the board uses? |
I believe polls prove otherwise. Maybe it’s time for another one
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Redbird
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Sun, Jan 10 2021, 12:59 pm
To me "frum" means keeping the basics: shabbos, kosher, teharas hishpacha, and basic emunah.
I consider people who are MO and don't cover hair, elbows, wear pants ect to still be frum.
Ive assumed most people see it this way. I guess not?
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amother
Saddlebrown
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Sun, Jan 10 2021, 1:04 pm
I'm a native Yiddish speaker. It's perfectly normal to ask if someone is a frime Yid as opposed to a secular one. You can also say "he is frim but not erhlich" or "he is ehrlich but not frim" or "he has frimme meshigasen"
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