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amother




Linen
 

Post Wed, Jan 13 2021, 4:27 pm
amother [ Babypink ] wrote:
Yeah the companies are all the husbands names.
She can decide which company she wants to join... where she wants to become the CEO.
And he gets to decide who he chooses as his CEO, it can be someone who will make him millions or rip him to shreds so it’s a big decision for both of them.
Once she’s CEO the company is hers too even though the name isn’t, infact even the name becomes hers too, and yeah her past is kind of hidden. Just like the roots of a tree.
It’s there big time but it’s hidden.
(I mean the kids are only Jewish because of her, that’s the root, but the branches, the shevet is his).

I think that’s the idea.


Most women don't identify with that idea anymore, and I can't imagine any CEO of any company being ok with being called Mrs. Avrohom Rosenberg, as in zaq's historic document.

Personally, I consider the shevet as much mine as my husband's. I certainly put a lot of pain and labor into birthing those branches.

Again, if it suits your fancy fine, but I really don't think that in mainstream society that is accepted anymore.
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amother




Tan
 

Post Wed, Jan 13 2021, 4:41 pm
When my ds got a job and now had his own checking account and significant sums of tzedakah to give, he asked me for advice about where to give. to get him started, I gave him a selection of envelopes from different types of tzedakahs from the huge stack on my desk, and he did whatever he did.

Well, apparently no tzedakah thinks that there's such a thing as a household with a mother who writes checks and an adult son who makes money and gives his own tzedakah. If there's a male and a female with the same last name at the same address, obviously they must be married to each other, even if they send in separate checks from separate individual accounts and the female has been donating for forty years while the male just started donating last week. How my (very much alive till 120) husband fits in the picture I don't know, but a bigamist (bigandrist?)I'm not. But next thing I know, we're getting duplicate schnorrer letters from these tzedakahs, one to Mr. and Mrs. Elliott Rabinowitz and one to Mr. & Mrs. Jeremy and Adinah Rabinowitz. There is no Mr & Mrs Jeremy and Adinah Rabinowitz and there never was! I'm Adinah, still very much married to Elliott. We have a joint account, I have my own account, and I write tzedakah checks from both. Jeremy is our son and writes checks from his own account. Elliott donates mostly online.

SO aggravating. Also irritating, from tzedakahs that apparently my son doesn't give to: I write a check from my own account in the name of Adinah Rabinowitz. The receipt is made out to Mr. & Mrs. Elliott Rabinowitz and sometimes to Mr. Elliott Rabinowitz alone. What the heck? The funds came out of Adinah's account and the check was signed by Adinah, why are they sending the receipt to Elliott? Good thing we're still married, or Elliott would be deducting MY donations on HIS income tax forms.
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dancingqueen




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 13 2021, 5:04 pm
amother [ Linen ] wrote:
The couple doesn't become one, the wife is subsumed under her husband's identity.

Becoming one means that their identity is merged, and that isn't happening here. You have no idea of anything to do with the woman when she is called Mrs. Avrhohom Rosenberg, except that she is married to Mr. Avrohom Rosenberg. Whereas you know exactly who the man is, his religion (Jewish), his eida (likely Ashkenazi), his background (probably frum and perhaps Yiddish speaking).

The woman could be a Chinese buddhist or a mizrachi Israeli or an anglo-Saxon convert for all we know. She's erased.


You put that perfectly. And I actually checked, invites from our peers usually say Wife & Husband Lastname. Or sometimes title and title wife and husband lastname.
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Fox




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 13 2021, 5:43 pm
amother [ Linen ] wrote:
Most women don't identify with that idea anymore, and I can't imagine any CEO of any company being ok with being called Mrs. Avrohom Rosenberg, as in zaq's historic document.

That's the whole point of "Ms." So why don't people use it if they want to use a woman's name?

Why this thrusting need to say, "Look at me!" all the time?
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dancingqueen




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 13 2021, 5:51 pm
Fox wrote:
That's the whole point of "Ms." So why don't people use it if they want to use a woman's name?

Why this thrusting need to say, "Look at me!" all the time?


Because I look good today. LOL

Or maybe because the view that a woman’s identity is subsumed by her dh once she is married is too archaic for me. I only see mr x and ms y if the wife didn’t change her last name.
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Fox




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 13 2021, 5:57 pm
dancingqueen wrote:
Because I look good today. LOL

Or maybe because the view that a woman’s identity is subsumed by her dh once she is married is too archaic for me. I only see mr x and ms y if the wife didn’t change her last name.

Yeah, I've heard all this, but it just strikes me as unbearably . . . icky. My identity doesn't depend on having my name on something, sitting next to my husband at an event, or making sure that everyone knows I'm there.

And like I said, in those situations where my husband and I aren't a unit -- such as business, I use "Ms."
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amother




Babypink
 

Post Wed, Jan 13 2021, 6:37 pm
amother [ Tan ] wrote:
When my ds got a job and now had his own checking account and significant sums of tzedakah to give, he asked me for advice about where to give. to get him started, I gave him a selection of envelopes from different types of tzedakahs from the huge stack on my desk, and he did whatever he did.

Well, apparently no tzedakah thinks that there's such a thing as a household with a mother who writes checks and an adult son who makes money and gives his own tzedakah. If there's a male and a female with the same last name at the same address, obviously they must be married to each other, even if they send in separate checks from separate individual accounts and the female has been donating for forty years while the male just started donating last week. How my (very much alive till 120) husband fits in the picture I don't know, but a bigamist (bigandrist?)I'm not. But next thing I know, we're getting duplicate schnorrer letters from these tzedakahs, one to Mr. and Mrs. Elliott Rabinowitz and one to Mr. & Mrs. Jeremy and Adinah Rabinowitz. There is no Mr & Mrs Jeremy and Adinah Rabinowitz and there never was! I'm Adinah, still very much married to Elliott. We have a joint account, I have my own account, and I write tzedakah checks from both. Jeremy is our son and writes checks from his own account. Elliott donates mostly online.

SO aggravating. Also irritating, from tzedakahs that apparently my son doesn't give to: I write a check from my own account in the name of Adinah Rabinowitz. The receipt is made out to Mr. & Mrs. Elliott Rabinowitz and sometimes to Mr. Elliott Rabinowitz alone. What the heck? The funds came out of Adinah's account and the check was signed by Adinah, why are they sending the receipt to Elliott? Good thing we're still married, or Elliott would be deducting MY donations on HIS income tax forms.


So Irritating and quite Insane.
The whole tzedaka system thing needs an overhaul.
I had similar thing.
Dh did not want to give a certain place a penny.
I told him I want to donate 1 K because of xyz a certain reason that I have feelings for that place.
A while later we get a nice arrangement before yontif with a nice gift and a beautiful letter saying thank you to dh for his generous donation. They didn’t even write Mr and Mrs Avrohom Rosenberg. Just Mr Avrohom Rosenberg.
I thought it’s so not nice and I actually very respectfully told them thank you for the acknowledgment and that they should please also write Mrs next time when addressing their donors and it might even help them actually make more money if they don’t ignore the wives of the donors. Even if the donor was really the man it should still say Mr and Mrs.... they’re one unit.
(I didn’t tell them without me they wouldn’t get any donation.... I just said the wives have a part in every donation).

Personally, I have no problem with Mr & Mrs Avrohom Rosenberg.
I do take issue with Mr. Avrohom Rosenberg alone. That’s feels like they’re erasing me, dh is not a widower thank Gd.
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amother




Babypink
 

Post Wed, Jan 13 2021, 6:51 pm
amother [ Linen ] wrote:
Most women don't identify with that idea anymore, and I can't imagine any CEO of any company being ok with being called Mrs. Avrohom Rosenberg, as in zaq's historic document.

Personally, I consider the shevet as much mine as my husband's. I certainly put a lot of pain and labor into birthing those branches.

Again, if it suits your fancy fine, but I really don't think that in mainstream society that is accepted anymore.

Just curious how is the shevet just as much yours?
If you are shevet Yehuda and your dh is shevet Levi then your children are shevet Levi, not Yehuda.
Those Levi branches are most definitely yours but they’re still Levi branches, not Yehuda branches.

(And if Heaven forbid dh would marry a non jew then his branches would not even be his. The children would be non Jews and not even considered his children at all. No such thing as shevet Yehuda non jew. So In a sense a woman is stronger standing... the root is from her even if it’s all hidden. But they’re meant to be one unit).
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simcha2




 
 
 
 

Post Wed, Jan 13 2021, 7:16 pm
Crookshanks wrote:
If the guy does it himself I'd just think it's a sensitivity towards his wife. Doesn't seem awkard at all to me. I'm from Lakewood for reference Smile


I'd think he had forgotten it!
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amother




Linen
 

Post Thu, Jan 14 2021, 12:27 am
Fox wrote:
That's the whole point of "Ms." So why don't people use it if they want to use a woman's name?

Why this thrusting need to say, "Look at me!" all the time?


Some people don't use Ms. because it has a modern, feminist connotation (not in my circles; Ms is very popular there; but I know in other circles this exists).

Etiquette changes with time, and Mrs. Lisa Cohen has become 100% acceptable. Etiquette isn't mathematics. It adapts. Just like today it is perfectly acceptable for a woman to show up to work in pants, and 80 years ago it was not so acceptable.

Same thing with using Mrs. in front of a woman's name. Nobody considers this wrong or a faux pas anymore, in fact I am sure most people would be surprised if you raised such a concept. It certainly isn't a cry to 'look at me'.

Finally, I really don't understand this whole diatribe against women who want their name to be seen, as though they are attention seeking brats screaming 'look at me'. I am sorry, but having my own name (whether it be just my first name if I changed my last one to my husband's, or whether it be both first and last name if I didn't) - having my own name acknowledged when names are acknowledged is a basic human desire.

Women aren't wired differently than men in that respect. If Josh Rosenberg marries Florit Twitto, I want to see how happy he would be to be referred to as Mr. Florit Twitto on every invitation and formal address.
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amother




Lawngreen
 

Post Thu, Jan 14 2021, 12:30 am
How do ppl address mail. When I send out invitations I always address married couples on the envelope as mr and mrs husbandFirstName lastName
Not the wife’s name.
Anyone do diff?
How and Why or why not?

Do ppl address envelopes as
mr and Mrs avraham and Sara Avos
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amother




Linen
 

Post Thu, Jan 14 2021, 12:32 am
amother [ Babypink ] wrote:
Just curious how is the shevet just as much yours?
If you are shevet Yehuda and your dh is shevet Levi then your children are shevet Levi, not Yehuda.
Those Levi branches are most definitely yours but they’re still Levi branches, not Yehuda branches.

(And if Heaven forbid dh would marry a non jew then his branches would not even be his. The children would be non Jews and not even considered his children at all. No such thing as shevet Yehuda non jew. So In a sense a woman is stronger standing... the root is from her even if it’s all hidden. But they’re meant to be one unit).


I didn't mean shevet in the halachic sense. As you say, in that case it's not that clear they are his either - after all I am the one who decides if they are Jewish at all, so I create the national 'shevet' (Jewish) and he creates the more local ones (Levi etc).

I'm not going there at all, this isn't a halachic discussion. I meant shevet in the metaphoric sense, as in, my descendants are my legacy as much as they are my husband's. My place on the family tree is equal to his. Look at family trees - have you ever seen them drawn with the males and females placed unequally, one hidden and one not?
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amother




Linen
 

Post Thu, Jan 14 2021, 12:38 am
amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:
How do ppl address mail. When I send out invitations I always address married couples on the envelope as mr and mrs husbandFirstName lastName
Not the wife’s name.
Anyone do diff?
How and Why or why not?

Do ppl address envelopes as
mr and Mrs avraham and Sara Avos


First of all, I barely send out mail anymore. Almost everything is on whatsapp, even invitations to bar mitzvahs. Saves a lot of paper, saves the environment. (This is Israel where things may be more casual).

Second, since I moved to Israel I no longer have to deal with Mr. and Mrs, it doesn't exist. So I address an envelope to Avraham and Sara Cohen if she changed her name, and if she did not, to Sara Levi and Avraham Cohen. And of course you have cases where she combined her name, or even both of them did (I don't always know what they decided, of course, so I am sure there have been mistakes).

If I only know one side of the couple, and I don't even know the spouse's name (say, I work with the husband) - then I will write אברהם כהן ובת זוגו or שרה לוי ובן זוגה. But that's only in cases where I am not expected to know the spouse's name.

Second, when I did live in the US, I only addressed older couples as Mr and Mrs. Not the ones my age. And yes, I definitely used to write the woman's first name!!!
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amother




Seagreen
 

Post Thu, Jan 14 2021, 12:47 am
Didn’t read all the comments. The Torah has women’s names. That’s good enough for me. No need to be frummer than God.
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amother




Floralwhite
 

Post Thu, Jan 14 2021, 12:55 am
amother [ Linen ] wrote:
Some people don't use Ms. because it has a modern, feminist connotation (not in my circles; Ms is very popular there; but I know in other circles this exists).

Etiquette changes with time, and Mrs. Lisa Cohen has become 100% acceptable. Etiquette isn't mathematics. It adapts. Just like today it is perfectly acceptable for a woman to show up to work in pants, and 80 years ago it was not so acceptable.

Same thing with using Mrs. in front of a woman's name. Nobody considers this wrong or a faux pas anymore, in fact I am sure most people would be surprised if you raised such a concept. It certainly isn't a cry to 'look at me'.

Finally, I really don't understand this whole diatribe against women who want their name to be seen, as though they are attention seeking brats screaming 'look at me'. I am sorry, but having my own name (whether it be just my first name if I changed my last one to my husband's, or whether it be both first and last name if I didn't) - having my own name acknowledged when names are acknowledged is a basic human desire.

Women aren't wired differently than men in that respect. If Josh Rosenberg marries Florit Twitto, I want to see how happy he would be to be referred to as Mr. Florit Twitto on every invitation and formal address.


Well said.
Why should a woman be made to feel needy or attention-seeking for wanting something as basic as a name? SMH 🤦‍♀️ I don’t really care about these things until I find out that people would think I’m crazy if I did care.
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dancingqueen




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jan 14 2021, 1:08 pm
amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:
Well said.
Why should a woman be made to feel needy or attention-seeking for wanting something as basic as a name? SMH 🤦‍♀️ I don’t really care about these things until I find out that people would think I’m crazy if I did care.


Exactly what you said. I just chalk it up to a generational thing!
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amother




Linen
 

Post Thu, Jan 14 2021, 4:08 pm
dancingqueen wrote:
Exactly what you said. I just chalk it up to a generational thing!


It used to be a generational thing, but that stopped a while ago. Today I think maybe it's a RW community thing. I'm older than most posters on this forum and I would be shocked to be addressed as Mrs. Husband Husband.
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Fox




 
 
 
 

Post Thu, Jan 14 2021, 4:21 pm
amother [ Linen ] wrote:
Some people don't use Ms. because it has a modern, feminist connotation (not in my circles; Ms is very popular there; but I know in other circles this exists).

This is precisely my objection to "Mrs. Chana Fox" and why I find it so weaselly. It's like saying, "I want be treated as an individual instead of a social unit, but I don't want to do anything that would suggest I'm not part of that social unit."

As for sublimating identities, I think sublimating our social identities to our work identities is much more problematic. Which is why I'm very happy to be "Ms. Chana Fox" professionally and "Mrs. Chaim Fox" in my social life, such as it is.
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amother




Linen
 

Post Thu, Jan 14 2021, 4:29 pm
Fox wrote:
This is precisely my objection to "Mrs. Chana Fox" and why I find it so weaselly. It's like saying, "I want be treated as an individual instead of a social unit, but I don't want to do anything that would suggest I'm not part of that social unit."

As for sublimating identities, I think sublimating our social identities to our work identities is much more problematic. Which is why I'm very happy to be "Ms. Chana Fox" professionally and "Mrs. Chaim Fox" in my social life, such as it is.


See, I object to Mrs. Husband Husband being considered the standard social unit. It's not a social unit if lots of people don't even know who you are, can't guess you are, receive invitations from you and have no idea who the invitation is from, etc.

It's a husband and appendage unit.

Our social unit is made up of two parts, and there should be some recognition of that.

And although I don't go by Mrs. at all, people who do are not 'weaselly'. Hardly anybody knows the history of 'Mrs'. Many women just want to be socially recognized as married, but without losing their name entirely. In fact, being called Mrs. Chana Fox these days is considered pretty traditional and old school, not some fancy weaselly way of calling attention to yourself.

Context is important. As someone said upthread, nobody has a copy of Emily Post at home and nobody is trying to rebel by being Mrs. Chana Fox. It's actually considered traditional these days.
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amother




Linen
 

Post Fri, Jan 15 2021, 3:15 am
Fox wrote:
This is precisely my objection to "Mrs. Chana Fox" and why I find it so weaselly. It's like saying, "I want be treated as an individual instead of a social unit, but I don't want to do anything that would suggest I'm not part of that social unit."

As for sublimating identities, I think sublimating our social identities to our work identities is much more problematic. Which is why I'm very happy to be "Ms. Chana Fox" professionally and "Mrs. Chaim Fox" in my social life, such as it is.


Coming back to this, because I don't understand your labelling of social and work identities here, and can't agree with it.

What is this talk of work identities? Not all women work, so they shouldn't have an identity out of Mrs. Husband Husband? Personally I have worked for over 30 years, but I don't consider my work identity who I am at all. I work because I have to, at the most convenient job, not because that is my identity. My identity goes far beyond that.

If I choose to donate money to a shul, or to volunteer, or to give a speech at the book club - none of these have anything to do with work, but none of them have anything to do with my husband either. How would you suggest I be introduced? Let's assume I am in a place that would feel uncomfortable introducing a woman in her 50s without adding a title. Let's assume I have an aversion to Ms. How should they introduce me?
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