Where is lecht in you house?

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Jan 14 2021, 1:56 pm

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

Nchr said in another thread that she sits opposite her husband, at the foot of the table. So it makes sense that she isn't conversing during the meal. It would be kind or awkward to shout across the table. The vast majority of people sit near their husband at the Shabbos table, so conversation between husband and wife is natural. And most people do see the shabbos table as a social scene. Not entirely social. Of course, there are zemiros and divrei torah. But also regular schmoozing, or even inspirational schmoozing.
I have only once been to a Shabbos meal where there was no regular talk and that was by my principal house in seminary. She and her husband were in their 70s or 80s. So no kids around. Her husband was a Rosh Yeshiva.

Nchr, just curious, in your house, do the kids talk at all during the meal, like just schmooze? Or is there seriously nothing but Zemiros and divrei torah for the duration of the whole meal? Did you grow up like that or did your husband?

Yes, I completely understand not talking across the table with many people present. But if just the family? Also not? When we're just us I also say divrei Torah and interact on any subject which can be reactions to the kids divrei Torah, husand's vort, etc. Even when not generally shmoozing but in a shabosdig way.

avrahamama

Thu, Jan 14 2021, 2:01 pm

There are some homes/families that work hard to be careful at their table. They're regular sweet fun families. They just have certain standards for their table.

One family I know says "chol patrol!" Everytime the shabbat table conversation turns to things like current events or how much something costs or whatever. Its not where I'm at right now. But I think it's a worthy value to aspire to.

Another family has a beautiful framed sign at the table. It lets everyone at the table know that a table is a mizbeach and the food and conversations are an offering to H. So they should be aware of what they are offering.

Were these families like this when they had a gaggle of rugrats under the table? Not as much. But it's something they grew into. When we visit my young children very much enjoy their time at the table. Share what they can at their level and then scram to the toyroom.

My husband and I appreciate being there. They are our mentors and yet their levels feel attainable.

My husband and I don't sit next to each other in their homes. And sometimes even rarely opposite each other. But that's fine. Because when I'm a guest there to absorb what I can from the wives. Women I look up to.

As a general rule we don't socialize as couples with out peers. For various reasons. Both my husband and I would rather be with our friends independent of spouses. And we don't have couple friends lol. Which is great. To me it means my friends are my friends because we connect not because it's socially convenient.

nchr

Thu, Jan 14 2021, 2:05 pm

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

No my kids don't shmooz but I don't have teenagers. At my parents house there is no shmoozing at all. Little kids can sometimes go into a different room to play but if they are at the table they are quiet. My mother's children are all just very quiet. My in laws don't talk across the table, but the women do talk amongst themselves in the kitchen sometimes or just quietly at the table but not when men are singing zemiros or saying divrei torah so it's not like there is much time to talk. If people are saying they interactively discuss things at their seuda I guess I understand why there is conversation but that's not something my immediate family does.

Zehava

Thu, Jan 14 2021, 3:03 pm

nchr wrote:

I’ve never been to a single shabbos meal where there was no talking at all. Please understand how unique this is.

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Jan 14 2021, 3:09 pm

nchr wrote:

Will this be called stalking if I ask you once again if you don't talk when you're at the Shabbos table with your immediate famly? Where there're no "women" or "men"? Just you as a woman and your husband as a man. Sorry for bothering but I'm trying to understand.

nchr

Thu, Jan 14 2021, 4:33 pm

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

Thought I already answered this. When it is just my husband, our children and me at the Shabbos table, I do not talk at the table. My parents never talked to each other either. I mean yes, I'll say technical things like "should I serve the soup now?" or "dc wanted to sing a song from cheder" or my husband can ask me "where has dc gone" but no real conversation. As a child, my father wouldn't even tell us to be quiet he would just put his finger over his mouth. Guess this is just a personality or nature.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Jan 14 2021, 4:34 pm

nchr wrote:

When and what exactly are you discussing? When you eat you don't talk. When men sing zemiros you don't talk. When children answer their shailas, you don't talk. When someone says a torah, you don't talk. When is there time to talk? Unless your seuda is 4 or 5 hours I'm not understanding. What are you talking about? The children? In front of them? I'm not getting it. Who made what simcha, that's about all I can think of. If I was expected to partake in conversation during the seuda I'd get a terrible headache it would be overwhelming. When I'm by my mother I'm not talking at her seuda just sitting and observing, that's probably more personality, but even if someone is a talker you need to be quiet anyways while eating, mens zemiros, mens torahs etc.

We talk during the meal, everyone sings, we all talk about the parsha. The talking is ongoing. And our shabbat seuda is maybe an hour and a half.
This is definitely not done by all or most families that I know.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Jan 14 2021, 4:38 pm

nchr wrote:

I understand that everyone does things differently but I am saddened by your description. Where is the simcha of shabbat at your table?

nchr

Thu, Jan 14 2021, 4:43 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I understand that everyone does things differently but I am saddened by your description. Where is the simcha of shabbat at your table?

This feels perfectly normal and fine to me. I like hearing zemiros. I like to observe more than interact. I think I'd feel overwhelmed if everyone was talking. Plus it is a Shabbos seuda so I don't think it is appropriate to just discuss whatever because then you end up discussing things you shouldn't (business, LH, etc.). So it's a combination of personal preference and Yiddishkeit IMO, but everyone is entitled to feel differently. Our seuda is about 2 hours, without the extra talking so there you go lol.

Zehava

Thu, Jan 14 2021, 4:59 pm

nchr wrote:

Just please add a disclaimer that this is purely a personal preference and in no way represents any minhag or sect of Judaism.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Jan 14 2021, 5:06 pm

nchr wrote:

Im just wondering, during the week, do you interact with your family during a meal?
Im just not understanding why on shabbat a meal has to be so solemn? And no, a meal with discussion does not have to end up with things being talked about that shouldnt be.

But also, like someone else said above, this is NOT about yiddishkeit. This is about YOUR personal preference.
I have family that are chassidish, charedi, MO and anything in between and I have never heard of this idea before.

nchr

Thu, Jan 14 2021, 5:18 pm

Zehava wrote:

Just please add a disclaimer that this is purely a personal preference and in no way represents any minhag or sect of Judaism.

I'm so sorry, I've tried saying this is a personality thing multiple times. I don't know how else I can put it.
Not discussing business is a Yiddishkeit thing. Separating men and women is a community thing. Our quiet is probably 90% a personality thing, 10% minhag/sect/whatever.

Zehava

Thu, Jan 14 2021, 5:27 pm

nchr wrote:

Yes, thank you
All the talk of “when is it possible to talk unless the meal is 5 hours” cmon obviously 99.99% of Frum people manage. I know you’re sincere and don’t know any other way. I just don’t want others getting the wrong impression. Chassidish people are accused enough of extremism as it is.

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Jan 14 2021, 5:36 pm

nchr wrote:

Thank you! I think I know another family like this, they are all very, very quiet. When we're invited to their house I remind myself to remember, there'll be no talking. It'll be zemiros, father and children addressing parshe and silent eating. Even very small children will be quiet. It's more personality I think. In my family we take care not to be talking about anything else but koidesh but it's never quiet. Thanks again.

amother

Ecru

Thu, Jan 14 2021, 5:59 pm

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

I also know a few families like this. Outgoing people tend to interact with other outgoing people. Actually one was head counselor in camp she kept saying she's a black sheep because rest of the family arw introverted, serious, and quiet.

Zehava

Thu, Jan 14 2021, 6:07 pm

amother [ Ecru ] wrote:

Many of us introverts are funny and loud😏 just saying

amother

Lemon

Thu, Jan 14 2021, 6:17 pm

nchr wrote:

While you are saying that its about personality, your tone when you ask what there is to talk about already seems mildly patronizing or accusing, as if it is a religious tenet to have a solemn, quiet meal where no extraneous conversation is going on.
There is a wide gamut of things to talk about at the shabbos table that are appropriate without getting into l"h or business. For many people, the shabbos table is where they reconnect each week and bond with each other. This is a beautiful and healthy way to run a Shabbos table with kids. The way you are describing your Shabbos meals seem extraordinarily strange and disturbing to most of us here.
I'm happy for you that you married a man that does things the same way as your father and that this way of doing shabbos meals works for you. But as someone above said, please realize how very unique it is.